Re: [CLC-Discussion] Texas Collection Agencies
If the law allows a lay person employee to prepare a lien, then the law should also allow a notice company to prepare a lien. I see no difference. Both are getting paid to do a job.
In the end, the lienor is signing/swearing to the lien. If the lienor signs/swears to it, the lienor buys it and that is all that should matter.
Otherwise, delete employee and lienor and state clearly that only attorneys can prepare liens.
Notice companies provide a valuable service to the subcontractor construction industry. They assist many small companies by allowing them to perfect their lien rights where otherwise, valid claims would be lost due to ignorance and lack of education. That is fact.
Anyways, I need to get some work done so I am out. We can pick up at the next CLI – post 9pm at the bar.
Dan
Daniel R. Vega, Esq.
Board Certified in Construction Law & Florida Supreme Court Certified Circuit Court Mediator
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
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Coral Gables, Florida 33134
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From: Weintraub, Lee [mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 9:46 AM
To: Dan Vega DVega@tevtlaw.com; CHernicz@Herniczlegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Texas Collection Agencies
The company she works for, but that is authorized by 713.08, which expressly authorizes a lienor’s employee to prepare liens.
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Dan Vega
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 9:41 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>; CHernicz@Herniczlegal.commailto:CHernicz@Herniczlegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Texas Collection Agencies
Lee, the secretary is doing it on her own behalf or the company she works for?
Daniel R. Vega, Esq.
Board Certified in Construction Law & Florida Supreme Court Certified Circuit Court Mediator
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
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From: Weintraub, Lee [mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 9:40 AM
To: Dan Vega <DVega@tevtlaw.commailto:DVega@tevtlaw.com>; CHernicz@Herniczlegal.commailto:CHernicz@Herniczlegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Texas Collection Agencies
There is an attorney general opinion holding that preparation of a lien on behalf of a client is unauthorized practice of law because, although you get fed information from the client, you have to undertake significant legal analysis, including determining the correct parcel of property to lien, identifying the specific nature of property ownership to be liened, determine which amount of the bills are lienable and which aren’t, etc. Uneducated secretaries can prepare the liens because they are doing it on their own behalves. If they were doing it for a third party client, then they are undertaking legal services.
Lee A. Weintraub
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Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Dan Vega
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 9:35 AM
To: CHernicz@Herniczlegal.commailto:CHernicz@Herniczlegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Texas Collection Agencies
Chuck, rigid interpretation of statutes to negate otherwise valid liens is not what the lien law intends to accomplish.
An employee with no training and no high school diploma can prepare a lien but not a notice company (obviously in both cases the lienor will sign and be sworn)???
An employee with no training and no high school diploma can prepare a lien but that is ok and not the unauthorized practice of law? The employee is getting paid too.
Guys, what is the policy behind all of this?? If the lien is valid, timely, and accurate and the lienor deserves to be paid, are we going to strike the lien because it was prepared (signed by the lienor) but prepared by joe blow notice co? And yet, the same valid lien prepared by a lay person employee is fine?
That to me folks is an absurd result.
Daniel R. Vega, Esq.
Board Certified in Construction Law & Florida Supreme Court Certified Circuit Court Mediator
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
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From: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq [mailto:CHernicz@Herniczlegal.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 9:17 AM
To: Dan Vega <DVega@tevtlaw.commailto:DVega@tevtlaw.com>
Cc: 'Wolf, Brian' <bawolf@smithcurrie.commailto:bawolf@smithcurrie.com>; 'Michael J. Kurzman' <MKurzman@wsh-law.commailto:MKurzman@wsh-law.com>; 'Alex Barthet' <Alex@barthet.commailto:Alex@barthet.com>; 'Arnold Tritt' <arnold.tritt@atritt.commailto:arnold.tritt@atritt.com>; 'Willis, David' <dwillis@rumberger.commailto:dwillis@rumberger.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Texas Collection Agencies
Dan, the statute allows preparation by the lienor, an “employee” of the lienor, or the lienor’s attorney. What you describe below is the unlicensed practice of law by a notice company.
Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
15854 Bent Creek Road
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@tevtlaw.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 8:22 AM
To: CHernicz@Herniczlegal.commailto:CHernicz@Herniczlegal.com
Cc: Wolf, Brian; Michael J. Kurzman; Alex Barthet; Arnold Tritt; Willis, David; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Texas Collection Agencies
If the lien is defective, it is defective.
Are you all saying that a secretary at a subcontractors office cannot prepare the lien even though it is signed by the president of the sub?
If a notice company prepares the lien form based on info provided by the sub, and the sub president signs it, what is wrong w that?
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Jul 28, 2016, at 8:12 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq <CHernicz@Herniczlegal.commailto:CHernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
I agree Brian. Notice companies offer this and prepare liens all the time. I’ve had to deal with numerous defective liens from notice companies. This was outlawed in 713.08 in 2007, but it is not being policed or enforced.
Chuck
Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
15854 Bent Creek Road
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Wolf, Brian
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 10:08 AM
To: Michael J. Kurzman; 'Alex Barthet'; Arnold Tritt; Willis, David; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Texas Collection Agencies
If the committee is going to address this issue, the committee should also address the larger problem of “lien notice services” offering to prepare claims of lien.
Brian A. Wolf
Partner
Board Certified Construction Attorney
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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Michael J. Kurzman
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 9:34 AM
To: 'Alex Barthet'; Arnold Tritt; Willis, David; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Texas Collection Agencies
Perhaps a letter to the Florida Attorney General’s office to see if they are interested in looking into the matter?
It seems to me that if you can show they are using false and misleading information, the Attorney General may be interested…
Michael J Kurzman, Esq.
Florida Bar Certified In Construction Law
Weiss Serota Helfman Cole & Bierman
200 East Broward Boulevard - Suite 1900
Ft. Lauderdale, Florida 33301
954 763 4242
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Alex Barthet
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 9:13 AM
To: Arnold Tritt; Willis, David; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Texas Collection Agencies
Arnie – I can’t argue with your logic about Grade A clients. Grade B clients help pay the bills and may be susceptible. Grade C clients, good riddance.
That said, as officers of the court knowing that they are fraudulently inducing those in the construction industry to hire them with false promises, if there is something we can do, we probably should.
Regards,
Alex Barthet
Board Certified in Construction Law
TheLienZone Construction Law Bloghttp://thelienzone.com/
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From: Arnold Tritt [mailto:arnold.tritt@atritt.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 9:05 AM
To: Alex Barthet <Alex@barthet.commailto:Alex@barthet.com>; Willis, David <dwillis@rumberger.commailto:dwillis@rumberger.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: Texas Collection Agencies
MUCH TO DO ABOUT NOTHING. Grade A business / construction clients don’t forsake their relationship with their legal counsel and engage an out-of-state collection agency to collect on a Claim of Lien based on a phone solicitation any more than Grade A business / construction clients engage an attorney in response to a radio spot. The Texas boys have been at it for years and your Grade A clients will always call you when they are contacted by such folks. If your client was ever to be duped by such tactics it was not Grade A and should be dropped and referred to your competition. Just my thoughts. Arnie.
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Alex Barthet
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 8:43 AM
To: Willis, David <dwillis@rumberger.commailto:dwillis@rumberger.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Texas Collection Agencies
David - I have tried to call on numerous occasions after they call my clients and they never call me back. Once they know a lawyer is involved, they seem to duck back into the shadows.
Regards,
Alex Barthet
Board Certified in Construction Law
TheLienZone Construction Law Bloghttp://thelienzone.com/
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From: Willis, David [mailto:dwillis@rumberger.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 8:36 AM
To: Alex Barthet <Alex@barthet.commailto:Alex@barthet.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: Texas Collection Agencies
I have heard similar stories. Milton Myers went away when I returned the call.
David C. Willis
Board Certified in Construction Law and Business Litigation
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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Alex Barthet
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 7:32 AM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Texas Collection Agencies
Good morning all. I am writing about an issue that I am seeing with increasing frequency. The purpose of this email is to (i) alert the community of this practice, (ii) learn if others are hearing the same thing from their clients and (iii) see if folks smarter than me have any ideas how to deal with, or ideally, stop them.
Many of our clients that record liens are receiving unsolicited calls from collection agencies out of Texas, the two most common we are seeing are Tucker Albin and Assoc. (http://tuckeralbin.net/) and Milton Myers and Assoc. (http://www.mmatx.net/). Obviously, they are getting the clients’ information by pulling the liens from the public records.
The problem is that they are making blatantly false statements such as they are working with others on the project and can guaranty payment if the client signs up, or they are representing several other lienors on the same project that are about the get paid and if the client signs up, he can get them paid now. The reason I know these statements are false is because in the last two occasions that my clients received these calls, they were the only lienors on the projects and on both, I was already in contact with counsel for both the contractor and owner negotiating settlements.
I look forward to hearing from the group.
Regards,
Alex Barthet
Board Certified in Construction Law
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