Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
You are asking the court to approve and condone an illegal act. I have had judges invalidated liens on that basis.
Regards,
Robert B. Worman
Worman & Sheffler, P.A.
2707 West Fairbanks Avenue
Suite 200
Winter Park, FL 32789
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rworman@wormanlaw.commailto:rworman@wormanlaw.com
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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Fred Barnes
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:12 AM
To: 'Larry Leiby' Leiby@mkpalaw.com; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.' Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; 'Dan Vega' DVega@TEVTLaw.com; 'Weintraub, Lee' lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
With all due respect, that just begs the question. Why should it be unlawful and unenforceable? Perhaps to protect owners from bogus liens?
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.comhttp://www.fcbarneslaw.com/
[rsz_1fcb_lrg_logo]
From: Larry Leiby [mailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:09 AM
To: Fred Barnes; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.'; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
The argument would be that the lien is unlawful and thus unenforceable when prepared by a non-lawyer for other than himself/herself.
From: Fred Barnes [mailto:fred@fcbarneslaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:07 AM
To: Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.' <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Let me chime in as a late-comer to the discussion.
It seems to me that there is no valid reason to invalidate the lien. The non-lawyer lien-preparer may be subject to prosecution for the unauthorized practice of law, but what is the rational for penalizing the lienor? Aiding and abetting the unauthorized practice of law? I doubt scienter could be established.
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.comhttp://www.fcbarneslaw.com/
[rsz_1fcb_lrg_logo]
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Larry Leiby
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:51 AM
To: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice. The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel. Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee. That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself. The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others. Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue. Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions. Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them. Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition). Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question. The possibility is there.
Happy Holidays, Larry
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
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On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com
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Dan,
If you look at the ethical lines taught to paralegals and now regulated by The Florida Bar, you see the line between providing the form and advising the client what to put into the blanks. It is analogous to the line a paralegal must follow.
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Dan Vega
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:39 AM
To: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Not my point.
And that can happen to a lawyer too.
Many lawyers do not understand the lien law and even the most experienced Construction lawyers err in interpreting chapter 713. You and I personally know this very well.
The point I am making is that if the lienor signs the lien, the lienor prepared the lien and owns its contents. Otherwise don’t sign it.
The fact a notice company facilitates the process for the lienor should not invalidate an otherwise valid lien.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 10:28 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
I have a good example of why notice companies should not be preparing liens for subs (taken from real facts). A notice company prepared a lien for a sub, who wasn’t a lienor within the definition of chapter 713 (a third level sub-sub-sub). The sub was unaware (the notice company almost certainly unaware) that the lien was legally invalid. The sub later filed for foreclosure on the lien and could face fees and costs because the lien in unenforceable. That is why an attorney should be involved; subs DO NOT KNOW that notice companies are prohibited by law from preparing liens. This is the practice of law.
Chuck
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Steve Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:55 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
I think we can all agree that there is a variety of legal analysis that takes place in lien preparation such as:
-
Is it timely? (i.e. what exactly is last date of work or provision of materials?) -
Have conditions precedent been met (NTO – have all parties been properly served?) -
Privity issues (i.e. tenant involved? Exculpatory language in recorded landlord’s lease?)
These are legal issues that need a lawyer’s analysis. I have prospective clients approach me all the time with potentially defective liens they recorded themselves. Unfortunately, they often do so after the time for amendment.
Steven F. Thompson, Esq.
Thompson Commercial Law Group
412 E. Madison St., Ste 900
Tampa, Fl. 33602
813-387-1821
Fax 813-387-1824
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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Dan Vega
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
<2b6986.png>http://www.bplegal.com
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The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.commailto:care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com
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This parallel issue has already been addressed by the Supreme Court where association managers are prohibited from filing condo liens.
Sincerely yours,
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Office: (954) 620-5000
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Bryce Gilbert, Esq.
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Senior Partner
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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:38 AM
To: 'Weintraub, Lee' lweintraub@bplegal.com; 'Alex Barthet' Alex@barthet.com; 'Dan Vega' DVega@TEVTLaw.com; 'Larry Leiby' Leiby@mkpalaw.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
I disagree. It should be a panel discussion and Dan should be on the panel because he is the only one I’ve seen trying to defend the practice of notice companies violating the lien law.
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Weintraub, Lee
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:14 AM
To: Alex Barthet Alex@barthet.com; Dan Vega DVega@TEVTLaw.com; Larry Leiby Leiby@mkpalaw.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Just don’t let Dan be the speaker. ☺
From: Alex Barthet [mailto:Alex@barthet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:13 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>; Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Seems like an interesting topic for the CLI in March. Just a thought.
Regards,
Alex Barthet
Board Certified in Construction Law
TheLienZone Construction Law Bloghttp://thelienzone.com/
vCardhttp://barthet.com/Wordpress-Site/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/alexander-e-barthet.vcf | Biographyhttp://barthet.com/team/alexander-barthet/alexander-barthet-full-bio/
The Barthet Firm
200 S. Biscayne Blvd., Suite 1800
Miami, Florida 33131
305-347-5295 (direct line)
alex@barthet.commailto:alex@barthet.com
www.barthet.comhttp://www.barthet.com/
This electronic communication may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized agent of the intended recipient, please delete this communication and notify the sender. Thank you.
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Weintraub, Lee
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:01 AM
To: Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
By the way, I have also represented an NTO company in defense of an unauthorized practice of law complaint from the Florida Bar. We settled it by the company shutting down its lien preparation services.
From: Weintraub, Lee
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:00 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
From where does the legal description come? Or the determination of the true property owner? Or the determination that the NOC’s legal description is accurate? I have prepared many liens where these were nightmare issues and you can’t just rely on an NOC. You can rely on the NOC for NTO purposes, but not for liening property.
For what service is the NTO company charging a fee – use of its form? The lienor can get that from the statute. The NTO company (and I have represented them) actually works up the lien, gathering info from the lienor, then looking at title for the rest.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:55 AM
To: Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
You all are blowing this way out of proportion.
The lienor is signing a form that includes data provided by the lienor.
The notice Company is not preparing the lien.
The notice Company facilitates the lienor’s preparation of the lien and records it for a fee.
In South Florida, this service is extremely valuable to the very people who are actually physically performing the work.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:51 AM, Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com> wrote:
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice. The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel. Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee. That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself. The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others. Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue. Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions. Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them. Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition). Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question. The possibility is there.
Happy Holidays, Larry
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
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On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.comhttps://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=Chernicz%40HerniczLegal.com&data=02%7C01%7Calex%40barthet.com%7Cbfba77df783a42aed4cc08d54172c223%7C4db1f097afcb4c95948f952ebf3da42d%7C0%7C0%7C636486883502099322&sdata=qxiw9QuWHeM4BqKJlsKsrtP6ctHXBIHLIyAUeZ5sKoM%3D&reserved=0
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
www.barrykalmanson.comhttps://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.barrykalmanson.com&data=02%7C01%7Calex%40barthet.com%7Cbfba77df783a42aed4cc08d54172c223%7C4db1f097afcb4c95948f952ebf3da42d%7C0%7C0%7C636486883502099322&sdata=NrmS%2FQ%2BoTQu8wLBLCN1Jr6zK1WApmvjrK7hf19uhnlI%3D&reserved=0
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“Scienter”. Now that’s a term I haven’t heard since criminal law class in law school Fred! Thanks for that. Brought back great memories of the class and professor. One of my favorite classes.
Sorry this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but everyone has already beat this horse to death ☺.
[Description: cid:image002.jpg@01D32CA9.D0270670]
Gary L. Brown | Partner
Board Certified in Construction Law
SAUL EWING ARNSTEIN & LEHR LLP
200 E. Las Olas Blvd., Suite 1000 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.713.7615 | Fax: 954.713.7715
gary.brown@saul.commailto:gary.brown@saul.com | www.saul.comhttp://www.saul.com/
- Please note that our Firm name and my email address have changed.
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Fred Barnes
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:07 AM
To: 'Larry Leiby'; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.'; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Let me chime in as a late-comer to the discussion.
It seems to me that there is no valid reason to invalidate the lien. The non-lawyer lien-preparer may be subject to prosecution for the unauthorized practice of law, but what is the rational for penalizing the lienor? Aiding and abetting the unauthorized practice of law? I doubt scienter could be established.
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.comhttp://www.fcbarneslaw.com/
[rsz_1fcb_lrg_logo]
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Larry Leiby
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:51 AM
To: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice. The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel. Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee. That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself. The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others. Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue. Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions. Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them. Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition). Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question. The possibility is there.
Happy Holidays, Larry
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
<2b6986.png>http://www.bplegal.com
<9cacb3.png>http://www.bplegal.com/rss.aspx <dcebd0.png>http://twitter.com/BeckerPoliakoff <ea86ca.png>http://www.youtube.com/user/bplawfirm/videos <874eba.png>http://www.linkedin.com/company/becker-&-poliakoff-p.a. <9db15a.png>http://www.facebook.com/beckerpoliakoff
The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.commailto:care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com
CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussionhttp://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion
CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussionhttp://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion
"Saul Ewing Arnstein & Lehr LLP (saul.com) " made the following annotations:
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
This e-mail may contain privileged, confidential, copyrighted, or other legally protected information. If you are not the intended recipient (even if the e-mail address is yours), you may not use, copy, or retransmit it. If you have received this by mistake please notify us by return e-mail, then delete.
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Ah!
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
http://www.fcbarneslaw.com/ www.fcbarneslaw.com
rsz_1fcb_lrg_logo
From: Brown, Gary L. [mailto:gary.brown@saul.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 1:34 PM
To: Fred Barnes; 'Larry Leiby'; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.'; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
“Scienter”. Now that’s a term I haven’t heard since criminal law class in law school Fred! Thanks for that. Brought back great memories of the class and professor. One of my favorite classes.
Sorry this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but everyone has already beat this horse to death J.
Description: cid:image002.jpg@01D32CA9.D0270670
Gary L. Brown | Partner
Board Certified in Construction Law
SAUL EWING ARNSTEIN & LEHR LLP
200 E. Las Olas Blvd., Suite 1000 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.713.7615 | Fax: 954.713.7715
gary.brown@saul.com | www.saul.com http://www.saul.com/
- Please note that our Firm name and my email address have changed.
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Fred Barnes
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:07 AM
To: 'Larry Leiby'; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.'; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Let me chime in as a late-comer to the discussion.
It seems to me that there is no valid reason to invalidate the lien. The non-lawyer lien-preparer may be subject to prosecution for the unauthorized practice of law, but what is the rational for penalizing the lienor? Aiding and abetting the unauthorized practice of law? I doubt scienter could be established.
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.com http://www.fcbarneslaw.com/
rsz_1fcb_lrg_logo
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Larry Leiby
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:51 AM
To: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice. The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel. Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee. That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself. The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others. Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue. Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions. Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them. Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition). Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question. The possibility is there.
Happy Holidays, Larry
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' DVega@TEVTLaw.com; 'Weintraub, Lee' lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mail mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Website http://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedIn http://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitter http://twitter.com/leeweintraub
http://www.bplegal.com <2b6986.png>
http://www.bplegal.com/rss.aspx <9cacb3.png> http://twitter.com/BeckerPoliakoff <dcebd0.png> http://www.youtube.com/user/bplawfirm/videos <ea86ca.png> http://www.linkedin.com/company/becker-&-poliakoff-p.a. <874eba.png> http://www.facebook.com/beckerpoliakoff <9db15a.png>
The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega DVega@TEVTLaw.com wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion
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http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion
"Saul Ewing Arnstein & Lehr LLP (saul.com)" has made the following annotations:
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
This e-mail may contain privileged, confidential, copyrighted, or other legally protected information. If you are not the intended recipient (even if the e-mail address is yours), you may not use, copy, or retransmit it. If you have received this by mistake please notify us by return e-mail, then delete.
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Members,
For over 40 years I have been associated with and legal counsel to the National Association of Credit Management of Florida, Inc. (NACM-South Atlantic), which has been one the major preparers of NTO’s and in the forefront with NACM Tampa, Inc. in trying to improve construction lien, bond and related legislation. For years I have advised my client that it cannot prepare or liens and NNP’s, all the while seeing other NTO companies doing so with relative impunity. The most recent instances brought out by Barry Kalmanson may only be the tip of the iceberg.
While I do not want to beat this topic to death, it seems to me this is one of those issues where we have an ethical obligation to report to The Bar when we see instances of this type of unauthorized practice of law. Maybe the CLC should have a subcommittee created to act as a clearing house our members can contact to report on instances where they run across liens or NNP’s that appear to be the result of the unauthorized practice of law. This subcommittee could review for probable cause, and then pass on it to the UPL Committee when we find a credible complaint?
Regards,
Robert B. Worman
Worman & Sheffler, P.A.
2707 West Fairbanks Avenue
Suite 200
Winter Park, FL 32789
407 843-5353
rworman@wormanlaw.commailto:rworman@wormanlaw.com
www.wormanlaw.comhttp://www.wormanlaw.com/
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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Fred Barnes
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 2:36 PM
To: 'Brown, Gary L.' gary.brown@saul.com; 'Larry Leiby' Leiby@mkpalaw.com; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.' Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; 'Dan Vega' DVega@TEVTLaw.com; 'Weintraub, Lee' lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Ah!
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.comhttp://www.fcbarneslaw.com/
[rsz_1fcb_lrg_logo]
From: Brown, Gary L. [mailto:gary.brown@saul.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 1:34 PM
To: Fred Barnes; 'Larry Leiby'; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.'; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
“Scienter”. Now that’s a term I haven’t heard since criminal law class in law school Fred! Thanks for that. Brought back great memories of the class and professor. One of my favorite classes.
Sorry this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but everyone has already beat this horse to death ☺.
[Description: cid:image002.jpg@01D32CA9.D0270670]
Gary L. Brown | Partner
Board Certified in Construction Law
SAUL EWING ARNSTEIN & LEHR LLP
200 E. Las Olas Blvd., Suite 1000 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.713.7615 | Fax: 954.713.7715
gary.brown@saul.commailto:gary.brown@saul.com | www.saul.comhttp://www.saul.com/
- Please note that our Firm name and my email address have changed.
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Fred Barnes
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:07 AM
To: 'Larry Leiby'; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.'; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Let me chime in as a late-comer to the discussion.
It seems to me that there is no valid reason to invalidate the lien. The non-lawyer lien-preparer may be subject to prosecution for the unauthorized practice of law, but what is the rational for penalizing the lienor? Aiding and abetting the unauthorized practice of law? I doubt scienter could be established.
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.comhttp://www.fcbarneslaw.com/
[rsz_1fcb_lrg_logo]
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Larry Leiby
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:51 AM
To: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice. The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel. Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee. That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself. The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others. Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue. Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions. Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them. Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition). Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question. The possibility is there.
Happy Holidays, Larry
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
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On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com
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Harrumph! I agree.
It is in the best interests of our profession and the public to weed out these NTO companies who abuse the UPL rules and this is easy to do.
Jeffrey L. Price, Esq.
Florida Bar Board Certified - Construction Law
Florida Civil-law Notary
Niesen|Price|Worthy|Campo, PA
5216 SW 91st Drive Gainesville, FL 32608
Ph (352) 373-9031 Fax (352) 373-9099
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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Robert Worman
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 10:25 AM
To: Fred Barnes fred@fcbarneslaw.com; 'Brown, Gary L.' gary.brown@saul.com; 'Larry Leiby' Leiby@mkpalaw.com; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.' Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; 'Dan Vega' DVega@TEVTLaw.com; 'Weintraub, Lee' lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Members,
For over 40 years I have been associated with and legal counsel to the National Association of Credit Management of Florida, Inc. (NACM-South Atlantic), which has been one the major preparers of NTO’s and in the forefront with NACM Tampa, Inc. in trying to improve construction lien, bond and related legislation. For years I have advised my client that it cannot prepare or liens and NNP’s, all the while seeing other NTO companies doing so with relative impunity. The most recent instances brought out by Barry Kalmanson may only be the tip of the iceberg.
While I do not want to beat this topic to death, it seems to me this is one of those issues where we have an ethical obligation to report to The Bar when we see instances of this type of unauthorized practice of law. Maybe the CLC should have a subcommittee created to act as a clearing house our members can contact to report on instances where they run across liens or NNP’s that appear to be the result of the unauthorized practice of law. This subcommittee could review for probable cause, and then pass on it to the UPL Committee when we find a credible complaint?
Regards,
Robert B. Worman
Worman & Sheffler, P.A.
2707 West Fairbanks Avenue
Suite 200
Winter Park, FL 32789
407 843-5353
rworman@wormanlaw.commailto:rworman@wormanlaw.com
www.wormanlaw.comhttp://www.wormanlaw.com/
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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Fred Barnes
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 2:36 PM
To: 'Brown, Gary L.' <gary.brown@saul.commailto:gary.brown@saul.com>; 'Larry Leiby' <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.' <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Ah!
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.comhttp://www.fcbarneslaw.com/
[rsz_1fcb_lrg_logo]
From: Brown, Gary L. [mailto:gary.brown@saul.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 1:34 PM
To: Fred Barnes; 'Larry Leiby'; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.'; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
“Scienter”. Now that’s a term I haven’t heard since criminal law class in law school Fred! Thanks for that. Brought back great memories of the class and professor. One of my favorite classes.
Sorry this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but everyone has already beat this horse to death ☺.
[Description: cid:image002.jpg@01D32CA9.D0270670]
Gary L. Brown | Partner
Board Certified in Construction Law
SAUL EWING ARNSTEIN & LEHR LLP
200 E. Las Olas Blvd., Suite 1000 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.713.7615 | Fax: 954.713.7715
gary.brown@saul.commailto:gary.brown@saul.com | www.saul.comhttp://www.saul.com/
- Please note that our Firm name and my email address have changed.
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Fred Barnes
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:07 AM
To: 'Larry Leiby'; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.'; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Let me chime in as a late-comer to the discussion.
It seems to me that there is no valid reason to invalidate the lien. The non-lawyer lien-preparer may be subject to prosecution for the unauthorized practice of law, but what is the rational for penalizing the lienor? Aiding and abetting the unauthorized practice of law? I doubt scienter could be established.
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.comhttp://www.fcbarneslaw.com/
[rsz_1fcb_lrg_logo]
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Larry Leiby
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:51 AM
To: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice. The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel. Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee. That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself. The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others. Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue. Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions. Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them. Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition). Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question. The possibility is there.
Happy Holidays, Larry
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
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On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com
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All that will do is hurt small Mom and pop construction companies.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 13, 2017, at 11:17 AM, Jeffrey Price <jeff@npw-law.commailto:jeff@npw-law.com> wrote:
Harrumph! I agree.
It is in the best interests of our profession and the public to weed out these NTO companies who abuse the UPL rules and this is easy to do.
Jeffrey L. Price, Esq.
Florida Bar Board Certified - Construction Law
Florida Civil-law Notary
Niesen|Price|Worthy|Campo, PA
5216 SW 91st Drive Gainesville, FL 32608
Ph (352) 373-9031 Fax (352) 373-9099
http://npw-law.comhttp://npw-law.com/
<image003.png><image001.jpg> <image002.jpg> This communication is intended for the sole use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this communication is not the intended recipient, employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify me by telephone, delete this communication, and destroy any copies of it. Thank you.
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Robert Worman
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 10:25 AM
To: Fred Barnes <fred@fcbarneslaw.commailto:fred@fcbarneslaw.com>; 'Brown, Gary L.' <gary.brown@saul.commailto:gary.brown@saul.com>; 'Larry Leiby' <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.' <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Members,
For over 40 years I have been associated with and legal counsel to the National Association of Credit Management of Florida, Inc. (NACM-South Atlantic), which has been one the major preparers of NTO’s and in the forefront with NACM Tampa, Inc. in trying to improve construction lien, bond and related legislation. For years I have advised my client that it cannot prepare or liens and NNP’s, all the while seeing other NTO companies doing so with relative impunity. The most recent instances brought out by Barry Kalmanson may only be the tip of the iceberg.
While I do not want to beat this topic to death, it seems to me this is one of those issues where we have an ethical obligation to report to The Bar when we see instances of this type of unauthorized practice of law. Maybe the CLC should have a subcommittee created to act as a clearing house our members can contact to report on instances where they run across liens or NNP’s that appear to be the result of the unauthorized practice of law. This subcommittee could review for probable cause, and then pass on it to the UPL Committee when we find a credible complaint?
Regards,
Robert B. Worman
Worman & Sheffler, P.A.
2707 West Fairbanks Avenue
Suite 200
Winter Park, FL 32789
407 843-5353
rworman@wormanlaw.commailto:rworman@wormanlaw.com
www.wormanlaw.comhttp://www.wormanlaw.com/
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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Fred Barnes
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 2:36 PM
To: 'Brown, Gary L.' <gary.brown@saul.commailto:gary.brown@saul.com>; 'Larry Leiby' <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.' <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Ah!
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.comhttp://www.fcbarneslaw.com/
<image008.png>
From: Brown, Gary L. [mailto:gary.brown@saul.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 1:34 PM
To: Fred Barnes; 'Larry Leiby'; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.'; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
“Scienter”. Now that’s a term I haven’t heard since criminal law class in law school Fred! Thanks for that. Brought back great memories of the class and professor. One of my favorite classes.
Sorry this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but everyone has already beat this horse to death ☺.
<image009.jpg>
Gary L. Brown | Partner
Board Certified in Construction Law
SAUL EWING ARNSTEIN & LEHR LLP
200 E. Las Olas Blvd., Suite 1000 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.713.7615 | Fax: 954.713.7715
gary.brown@saul.commailto:gary.brown@saul.com | www.saul.comhttp://www.saul.com/
- Please note that our Firm name and my email address have changed.
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Fred Barnes
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:07 AM
To: 'Larry Leiby'; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.'; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Let me chime in as a late-comer to the discussion.
It seems to me that there is no valid reason to invalidate the lien. The non-lawyer lien-preparer may be subject to prosecution for the unauthorized practice of law, but what is the rational for penalizing the lienor? Aiding and abetting the unauthorized practice of law? I doubt scienter could be established.
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.comhttp://www.fcbarneslaw.com/
<image008.png>
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Larry Leiby
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:51 AM
To: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice. The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel. Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee. That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself. The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others. Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue. Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions. Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them. Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition). Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question. The possibility is there.
Happy Holidays, Larry
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
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The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.commailto:care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com
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http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion
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Dan: Really?
So “small Mom & Pop Construction companies” should be free to act in whatever manner they see fit so long as it saves them money?
The Mom & Pop Qualifier had to become licensed and then take 14 hours of CE. Where (at least in our classes) they are told in the 1 hr. Laws and Regulations and the 1 hr. Business Practices sections that they need to file an NTO, and if not paid, a lien within 90 days of their last day of work. They think they are owed, let’s say, $5,000. So, they figure paying $50 to an NTO company for a lien is a good bet as opposed to paying $250 to a local attorney who just might ask some questions that saves them terrific heartache in the future.
Mom & Pop are acting in their best interests. Well, Mom & Pop deserve whatever happens to them and their lien.
And the NTO company? They have a limitation of liability saying the extent of the damages they may cause is the $50. I wish I could get that deal. Oh, wait. I’m not allowed to sign a contract that limits my professional liability.
Let’s look closely at what a NTO company brings to the table:
Mom & Pop provide all the information for the NTO – if its wrong, too bad.
The NTO company puts that information, good, bad or indifferent, on a statutory form and mails it only to the people Mom & Pop identified.
Did they confirm anything? No. Is the actual Owner correct? Maybe, maybe not.
Did they limit their liability to the $35 cost of the service? Yes.
Are they anything other than a mail forwarding service? No.
Now you want the NTO people to do a lien?
Where do they get their information? How do they confirm it? Do Mom & Pop get the presumption that the law allows that the lien is correct? Any safe-harbor?
If you want to run a construction business, then run it right. If Mom & Pop’s margins are so tight they can’t afford a lawyer for the occasional lien, they have priced themselves out of the market and out of business. If they have numerous liens, they are doing something really wrong and could use some legal advice.
Jeffrey L. Price, Esq.
Florida Bar Board Certified - Construction Law
Florida Civil-law Notary
Niesen|Price|Worthy|Campo, PA
5216 SW 91st Drive Gainesville, FL 32608
Ph (352) 373-9031 Fax (352) 373-9099
http://npw-law.comhttp://npw-law.com/
[npw-logo-circle-orange-medium][ConstructionLaw small logo] [http://www.boyd-jenerette.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/nacln12.gif] This communication is intended for the sole use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this communication is not the intended recipient, employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify me by telephone, delete this communication, and destroy any copies of it. Thank you.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 11:19 AM
To: Jeffrey Price jeff@npw-law.com
Cc: Robert Worman rworman@wormanlaw.com; Fred Barnes fred@fcbarneslaw.com; Brown, Gary L. gary.brown@saul.com; Larry Leiby Leiby@mkpalaw.com; Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
All that will do is hurt small Mom and pop construction companies.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 13, 2017, at 11:17 AM, Jeffrey Price <jeff@npw-law.commailto:jeff@npw-law.com> wrote:
Harrumph! I agree.
It is in the best interests of our profession and the public to weed out these NTO companies who abuse the UPL rules and this is easy to do.
Jeffrey L. Price, Esq.
Florida Bar Board Certified - Construction Law
Florida Civil-law Notary
Niesen|Price|Worthy|Campo, PA
5216 SW 91st Drive Gainesville, FL 32608
Ph (352) 373-9031 Fax (352) 373-9099
http://npw-law.comhttp://npw-law.com/
<image003.png><image001.jpg> <image002.jpg> This communication is intended for the sole use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this communication is not the intended recipient, employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify me by telephone, delete this communication, and destroy any copies of it. Thank you.
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Robert Worman
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 10:25 AM
To: Fred Barnes <fred@fcbarneslaw.commailto:fred@fcbarneslaw.com>; 'Brown, Gary L.' <gary.brown@saul.commailto:gary.brown@saul.com>; 'Larry Leiby' <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.' <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Members,
For over 40 years I have been associated with and legal counsel to the National Association of Credit Management of Florida, Inc. (NACM-South Atlantic), which has been one the major preparers of NTO’s and in the forefront with NACM Tampa, Inc. in trying to improve construction lien, bond and related legislation. For years I have advised my client that it cannot prepare or liens and NNP’s, all the while seeing other NTO companies doing so with relative impunity. The most recent instances brought out by Barry Kalmanson may only be the tip of the iceberg.
While I do not want to beat this topic to death, it seems to me this is one of those issues where we have an ethical obligation to report to The Bar when we see instances of this type of unauthorized practice of law. Maybe the CLC should have a subcommittee created to act as a clearing house our members can contact to report on instances where they run across liens or NNP’s that appear to be the result of the unauthorized practice of law. This subcommittee could review for probable cause, and then pass on it to the UPL Committee when we find a credible complaint?
Regards,
Robert B. Worman
Worman & Sheffler, P.A.
2707 West Fairbanks Avenue
Suite 200
Winter Park, FL 32789
407 843-5353
rworman@wormanlaw.commailto:rworman@wormanlaw.com
www.wormanlaw.comhttp://www.wormanlaw.com/
NOTICE:
THIS E-MAIL MESSAGE AND ANY ATTACHMENT TO THIS E-MAIL MESSAGE CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT MAY BE LEGALLY PRIVILEGED. IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU MUST NOT REVIEW, RETRANSMIT, CONVERT TO HARD COPY, COPY, USE OR DISSEMINATE THIS E-MAIL OR ANY ATTACHMENT TO IT. IF YOU HAVE RECEIVED THIS E-MAIL IN ERROR, PLEASE NOTIFY US IMMEDIATELY BY RETURN E-MAIL OR BY TELEPHONE AT 407-843-5353 AND DELETE THIS MESSAGE. PLEASE NOTE THAT IF THIS E-MAIL MESSAGE CONTAINS A FORWARDED MESSAGE OR IS A REPLY TO A PRIOR MESSAGE, SOME OR ALL OF THE CONTENTS OF THIS MESSAGE OR ANY ATTACHMENTS MAY NOT HAVE BEEN PRODUCED BY WORMAN & SHEFFLER, P.A.
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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Fred Barnes
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 2:36 PM
To: 'Brown, Gary L.' <gary.brown@saul.commailto:gary.brown@saul.com>; 'Larry Leiby' <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.' <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Ah!
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.comhttp://www.fcbarneslaw.com/
<image008.png>
From: Brown, Gary L. [mailto:gary.brown@saul.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 1:34 PM
To: Fred Barnes; 'Larry Leiby'; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.'; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
“Scienter”. Now that’s a term I haven’t heard since criminal law class in law school Fred! Thanks for that. Brought back great memories of the class and professor. One of my favorite classes.
Sorry this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but everyone has already beat this horse to death ☺.
<image009.jpg>
Gary L. Brown | Partner
Board Certified in Construction Law
SAUL EWING ARNSTEIN & LEHR LLP
200 E. Las Olas Blvd., Suite 1000 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.713.7615 | Fax: 954.713.7715
gary.brown@saul.commailto:gary.brown@saul.com | www.saul.comhttp://www.saul.com/
- Please note that our Firm name and my email address have changed.
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Fred Barnes
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:07 AM
To: 'Larry Leiby'; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.'; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Let me chime in as a late-comer to the discussion.
It seems to me that there is no valid reason to invalidate the lien. The non-lawyer lien-preparer may be subject to prosecution for the unauthorized practice of law, but what is the rational for penalizing the lienor? Aiding and abetting the unauthorized practice of law? I doubt scienter could be established.
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.comhttp://www.fcbarneslaw.com/
<image008.png>
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Larry Leiby
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:51 AM
To: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice. The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel. Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee. That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself. The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others. Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue. Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions. Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them. Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition). Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question. The possibility is there.
Happy Holidays, Larry
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
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On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com
CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion
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As someone who founded a notice to owner company I would like to add some information. I agree with those who have indicated that such companies provide a valuable service to mom and pop construction companies, both with respect to preparing and serving notices to owner and recording liens. Our notice company does not prepare liens. It provides the statutory form and then records the completed form and serves it. Our notice company does not provide advice or answer questions for the UPL reasons others have identified in this email thread.
These customers do not want to spend money on a lawyer which is why they use the service. We find that less than 1% of the notice company’s customers ever go the next step of consulting a lawyer even though our notice company commends them to do so.
All the forgoing said, I agree that other notice companies are committing UPL. Potential customers have complained (though not in high volume) when we do not answer questions, pointing out that other companies do so. Those complainers generally never do business with our notice company.
Justin R. Zinzow
Board Certified Construction Specialist
AV Preeminent® Rated Attorney
P: (727) 787-3121
F: (727) 787-3231
35111 US Highway 19 N, Suite 302
Palm Harbor, Florida 34684
Biohttp://www.zinzowlaw.com/attorney-profiles/Justin-Zinzow/ | Websitehttp://www.zinzowlaw.com/ | Emailmailto:%20jzinzow@zinzowlaw.com
[cid:image001.jpg@01D37408.A2B222A0]
Construction | Real Estate | Appellate | Business
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Dan Vega
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 11:19 AM
To: Jeffrey Price
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
All that will do is hurt small Mom and pop construction companies.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 13, 2017, at 11:17 AM, Jeffrey Price <jeff@npw-law.commailto:jeff@npw-law.com> wrote:
Harrumph! I agree.
It is in the best interests of our profession and the public to weed out these NTO companies who abuse the UPL rules and this is easy to do.
Jeffrey L. Price, Esq.
Florida Bar Board Certified - Construction Law
Florida Civil-law Notary
Niesen|Price|Worthy|Campo, PA
5216 SW 91st Drive Gainesville, FL 32608
Ph (352) 373-9031 Fax (352) 373-9099
http://npw-law.comhttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__npw-2Dlaw.com_&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=S1m8fHcxW4IfzbWxVBnddz7v0EMg5uNaaoV2JtOp7Rg&m=CL_DHsKUxvICSt6MHupXkEv96mP11Bq1rFe-CeU0I5E&s=kSmyVtSG0NAgX-3hArIGVyvtl6_XVR-R_-3EYiQ8qEw&e=
<image003.png><image001.jpg> <image002.jpg> This communication is intended for the sole use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this communication is not the intended recipient, employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify me by telephone, delete this communication, and destroy any copies of it. Thank you.
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Robert Worman
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 10:25 AM
To: Fred Barnes <fred@fcbarneslaw.commailto:fred@fcbarneslaw.com>; 'Brown, Gary L.' <gary.brown@saul.commailto:gary.brown@saul.com>; 'Larry Leiby' <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.' <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Members,
For over 40 years I have been associated with and legal counsel to the National Association of Credit Management of Florida, Inc. (NACM-South Atlantic), which has been one the major preparers of NTO’s and in the forefront with NACM Tampa, Inc. in trying to improve construction lien, bond and related legislation. For years I have advised my client that it cannot prepare or liens and NNP’s, all the while seeing other NTO companies doing so with relative impunity. The most recent instances brought out by Barry Kalmanson may only be the tip of the iceberg.
While I do not want to beat this topic to death, it seems to me this is one of those issues where we have an ethical obligation to report to The Bar when we see instances of this type of unauthorized practice of law. Maybe the CLC should have a subcommittee created to act as a clearing house our members can contact to report on instances where they run across liens or NNP’s that appear to be the result of the unauthorized practice of law. This subcommittee could review for probable cause, and then pass on it to the UPL Committee when we find a credible complaint?
Regards,
Robert B. Worman
Worman & Sheffler, P.A.
2707 West Fairbanks Avenue
Suite 200
Winter Park, FL 32789
407 843-5353
rworman@wormanlaw.commailto:rworman@wormanlaw.com
www.wormanlaw.comhttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.wormanlaw.com_&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=S1m8fHcxW4IfzbWxVBnddz7v0EMg5uNaaoV2JtOp7Rg&m=CL_DHsKUxvICSt6MHupXkEv96mP11Bq1rFe-CeU0I5E&s=fKbgAJJ3XBpJqdqzgkJYt-Nxh7VzLOemau90O_U31_s&e=
NOTICE:
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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Fred Barnes
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 2:36 PM
To: 'Brown, Gary L.' <gary.brown@saul.commailto:gary.brown@saul.com>; 'Larry Leiby' <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.' <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Ah!
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.comhttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.fcbarneslaw.com_&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=S1m8fHcxW4IfzbWxVBnddz7v0EMg5uNaaoV2JtOp7Rg&m=CL_DHsKUxvICSt6MHupXkEv96mP11Bq1rFe-CeU0I5E&s=_50H3VU0cvNRiul8GcHmoXx_rZM-h-aVKC2xpZ1ME7Q&e=
<image008.png>
From: Brown, Gary L. [mailto:gary.brown@saul.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 1:34 PM
To: Fred Barnes; 'Larry Leiby'; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.'; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
“Scienter”. Now that’s a term I haven’t heard since criminal law class in law school Fred! Thanks for that. Brought back great memories of the class and professor. One of my favorite classes.
Sorry this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but everyone has already beat this horse to death ☺.
<image009.jpg>
Gary L. Brown | Partner
Board Certified in Construction Law
SAUL EWING ARNSTEIN & LEHR LLP
200 E. Las Olas Blvd., Suite 1000 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.713.7615 | Fax: 954.713.7715
gary.brown@saul.commailto:gary.brown@saul.com | www.saul.comhttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.saul.com_&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=S1m8fHcxW4IfzbWxVBnddz7v0EMg5uNaaoV2JtOp7Rg&m=CL_DHsKUxvICSt6MHupXkEv96mP11Bq1rFe-CeU0I5E&s=fMzUsdem_Wu0-PJQc7eWJyK3WWWxUvD-06bwto5p7pI&e=
- Please note that our Firm name and my email address have changed.
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Fred Barnes
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:07 AM
To: 'Larry Leiby'; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.'; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Let me chime in as a late-comer to the discussion.
It seems to me that there is no valid reason to invalidate the lien. The non-lawyer lien-preparer may be subject to prosecution for the unauthorized practice of law, but what is the rational for penalizing the lienor? Aiding and abetting the unauthorized practice of law? I doubt scienter could be established.
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.comhttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.fcbarneslaw.com_&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=S1m8fHcxW4IfzbWxVBnddz7v0EMg5uNaaoV2JtOp7Rg&m=CL_DHsKUxvICSt6MHupXkEv96mP11Bq1rFe-CeU0I5E&s=_50H3VU0cvNRiul8GcHmoXx_rZM-h-aVKC2xpZ1ME7Q&e=
<image008.png>
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Larry Leiby
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:51 AM
To: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice. The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel. Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee. That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself. The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others. Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue. Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions. Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them. Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition). Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question. The possibility is there.
Happy Holidays, Larry
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.bplegal.com&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=S1m8fHcxW4IfzbWxVBnddz7v0EMg5uNaaoV2JtOp7Rg&m=CL_DHsKUxvICSt6MHupXkEv96mP11Bq1rFe-CeU0I5E&s=1IR9FrXwOjonOPiYr1_SMTSytka74YUkJY-_bjgaV9g&e= | Connect on LinkedInhttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.linkedin.com_pub_lee-2Dweintraub_1b_a0b_813&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=S1m8fHcxW4IfzbWxVBnddz7v0EMg5uNaaoV2JtOp7Rg&m=CL_DHsKUxvICSt6MHupXkEv96mP11Bq1rFe-CeU0I5E&s=BuZFhtqCIu0ai91IwEzVEgH8K-emnRrkJubLO3Vw-so&e= | Follow Me on Twitterhttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_leeweintraub&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=S1m8fHcxW4IfzbWxVBnddz7v0EMg5uNaaoV2JtOp7Rg&m=CL_DHsKUxvICSt6MHupXkEv96mP11Bq1rFe-CeU0I5E&s=RUWj61u5qEoxX95yuePNFch4X9DoezQTBH_X5hh9GB0&e=
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On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.comhttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__Chernicz-40HerniczLegal.com&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=S1m8fHcxW4IfzbWxVBnddz7v0EMg5uNaaoV2JtOp7Rg&m=CL_DHsKUxvICSt6MHupXkEv96mP11Bq1rFe-CeU0I5E&s=geiL1ge69drmDvPYiKl19qb66j3MZTq4uClItWXSpLk&e=
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
www.barrykalmanson.comhttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.barrykalmanson.com&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=S1m8fHcxW4IfzbWxVBnddz7v0EMg5uNaaoV2JtOp7Rg&m=CL_DHsKUxvICSt6MHupXkEv96mP11Bq1rFe-CeU0I5E&s=dtasQs_g3SFUotlNJ8YtsqWJsy72cGzmPlx1Ar-WN2g&e=
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