Empathy List Archives

DW

David Weisman

Thu, Aug 4, 2011 7:25 PM

The USA has a lease as a tenant. The term expires. Landlord tries to claim holdover rent per statute. Lease is silent. USA says state law does not apply to us.

Anybody have any knowledge on this point?

David Weisman
Board Certified Real Estate Lawyer
Greenspoon Marder, P.A.
Trade Center South, Suite 700
100 West Cypress Creek Road
Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33309
Phone 954-491-1120
Toll Free 888-491-1120
Direct Phone 954-343-6941
Direct Fax 954-343-6942

[cid:image001.jpg@01CC52BA.CFC8A690]

The information contained in this transmission may be attorney/client privileged and confidential. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply e-mail.

Pursuant to Internal Revenue Service guidance, be advised that any federal tax advice contained in this written or electronic communication, including any attachments or enclosures, is not intended or written to be used and it
cannot be used by any person or entity for the purpose of (i) avoiding any tax penalties that may be imposed by the Internal Revenue Service or any other U.S. Federal taxing authority or agency or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.

The USA has a lease as a tenant. The term expires. Landlord tries to claim holdover rent per statute. Lease is silent. USA says state law does not apply to us. Anybody have any knowledge on this point? David Weisman Board Certified Real Estate Lawyer Greenspoon Marder, P.A. Trade Center South, Suite 700 100 West Cypress Creek Road Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33309 Phone 954-491-1120 Toll Free 888-491-1120 Direct Phone 954-343-6941 Direct Fax 954-343-6942 [cid:image001.jpg@01CC52BA.CFC8A690] The information contained in this transmission may be attorney/client privileged and confidential. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply e-mail. Pursuant to Internal Revenue Service guidance, be advised that any federal tax advice contained in this written or electronic communication, including any attachments or enclosures, is not intended or written to be used and it cannot be used by any person or entity for the purpose of (i) avoiding any tax penalties that may be imposed by the Internal Revenue Service or any other U.S. Federal taxing authority or agency or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.

GH

Greg Hass

Thu, Aug 4, 2011 11:14 PM

Wow, someone could probably write a law review article on this one!

Did the USA happen to point to any specific authority for their broad claim? I've always been of the understanding that the Feds are only exempt from State law if they can point to a specific Federal law/rule that either specifically exempts them or conflicts with the State law (or if the State law in question specifically exempts the Feds). For example, someone with a Florida CCW license can't carry concealed in the U.S. Post Office because there are federal laws/rules prohibiting it. But then the mailman can't leave the post office and proceed to break the State of Florida's traffic laws by speeding around while delivering your mail because there's no exemption for them to do that. I would challenge them to come up with a specific exemption - if they really are exempt I would think they could readily point to it.

But the next problem is that even if the Feds aren't exempt from the law, they could still raise the defense of sovereign immunity if you were to actually try to sue them for the money. And then even if you could overcome that, they're broke! :)

Greg

Greg Hass, Senior Counsel

Office of Law & Policy | FloridaRealtors(r)
7025 Augusta National Drive, Orlando, FL 32822
talk: 407.438.1400, ext. 2421
visit: http://www.floridarealtors.org

Be a Star at Florida Realtors Convention & Trade Expo
http://convention.floridarealtors.org August 24-28

[cid:image001.jpg@01C8B0EE.0B556530]

From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of David Weisman
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 3:26 PM
To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee
Subject: [RPPTL LandTen] FEDERAL LEASE

The USA has a lease as a tenant. The term expires. Landlord tries to claim holdover rent per statute. Lease is silent. USA says state law does not apply to us.

Anybody have any knowledge on this point?

David Weisman
Board Certified Real Estate Lawyer
Greenspoon Marder, P.A.
Trade Center South, Suite 700
100 West Cypress Creek Road
Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33309
Phone 954-491-1120
Toll Free 888-491-1120
Direct Phone 954-343-6941
Direct Fax 954-343-6942

[Email Logo -Resize 30]

The information contained in this transmission may be attorney/client privileged and confidential. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have

received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply e-mail.

Pursuant to Internal Revenue Service guidance, be advised that any federal tax advice contained in this written or electronic communication, including any attachments or enclosures, is not intended or written to be used and it

cannot be used by any person or entity for the purpose of (i) avoiding any tax penalties that may be imposed by the Internal Revenue Service or any other U.S. Federal taxing authority or agency or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.

Wow, someone could probably write a law review article on this one! Did the USA happen to point to any specific authority for their broad claim? I've always been of the understanding that the Feds are only exempt from State law if they can point to a specific Federal law/rule that either specifically exempts them or conflicts with the State law (or if the State law in question specifically exempts the Feds). For example, someone with a Florida CCW license can't carry concealed in the U.S. Post Office because there are federal laws/rules prohibiting it. But then the mailman can't leave the post office and proceed to break the State of Florida's traffic laws by speeding around while delivering your mail because there's no exemption for them to do that. I would challenge them to come up with a specific exemption - if they really are exempt I would think they could readily point to it. But the next problem is that even if the Feds aren't exempt from the law, they could still raise the defense of sovereign immunity if you were to actually try to sue them for the money. And then even if you could overcome that, they're broke! :) Greg Greg Hass, Senior Counsel Office of Law & Policy | FloridaRealtors(r) 7025 Augusta National Drive, Orlando, FL 32822 talk: 407.438.1400, ext. 2421 visit: http://www.floridarealtors.org Be a Star at Florida Realtors Convention & Trade Expo http://convention.floridarealtors.org August 24-28 [cid:image001.jpg@01C8B0EE.0B556530] From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of David Weisman Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 3:26 PM To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee Subject: [RPPTL LandTen] FEDERAL LEASE The USA has a lease as a tenant. The term expires. Landlord tries to claim holdover rent per statute. Lease is silent. USA says state law does not apply to us. Anybody have any knowledge on this point? David Weisman Board Certified Real Estate Lawyer Greenspoon Marder, P.A. Trade Center South, Suite 700 100 West Cypress Creek Road Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33309 Phone 954-491-1120 Toll Free 888-491-1120 Direct Phone 954-343-6941 Direct Fax 954-343-6942 [Email Logo -Resize 30] The information contained in this transmission may be attorney/client privileged and confidential. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply e-mail. Pursuant to Internal Revenue Service guidance, be advised that any federal tax advice contained in this written or electronic communication, including any attachments or enclosures, is not intended or written to be used and it cannot be used by any person or entity for the purpose of (i) avoiding any tax penalties that may be imposed by the Internal Revenue Service or any other U.S. Federal taxing authority or agency or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.

NB

Neil B. Shoter

Fri, Aug 5, 2011 12:33 AM

David, I believe the government is subject to state law with respect to premises/lease related occupancy issues. However you would have to check the appropriate venue for bringint the initial suit. It may also be that claims under the lease are governed by the Contract Disputes Act and subject to the claims process of government contracts. Some of this depends on the actual lease and what it incorporates since GSA leases typically incorporate a boilerplate list of clauses, many of are the clauses we usually see in a lease as standard provisions. It's been a long time since I reviewed this area, but I believe there are cases in this area. Don't forget that sovereign immunity may not save the government from contract claims. I'm glad to check my files

Neil

From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Greg Hass
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 7:15 PM
To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee
Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] FEDERAL LEASE

Wow, someone could probably write a law review article on this one!

Did the USA happen to point to any specific authority for their broad claim? I've always been of the understanding that the Feds are only exempt from State law if they can point to a specific Federal law/rule that either specifically exempts them or conflicts with the State law (or if the State law in question specifically exempts the Feds). For example, someone with a Florida CCW license can't carry concealed in the U.S. Post Office because there are federal laws/rules prohibiting it. But then the mailman can't leave the post office and proceed to break the State of Florida's traffic laws by speeding around while delivering your mail because there's no exemption for them to do that. I would challenge them to come up with a specific exemption - if they really are exempt I would think they could readily point to it.

But the next problem is that even if the Feds aren't exempt from the law, they could still raise the defense of sovereign immunity if you were to actually try to sue them for the money. And then even if you could overcome that, they're broke! :)

Greg

Greg Hass, Senior Counsel

Office of Law & Policy | FloridaRealtors(r)
7025 Augusta National Drive, Orlando, FL 32822
talk: 407.438.1400, ext. 2421
visit: http://www.floridarealtors.org

Be a Star at Florida Realtors Convention & Trade Expo
http://convention.floridarealtors.org August 24-28

[cid:214392700@05082011-33C9]

From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of David Weisman
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 3:26 PM
To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee
Subject: [RPPTL LandTen] FEDERAL LEASE

The USA has a lease as a tenant. The term expires. Landlord tries to claim holdover rent per statute. Lease is silent. USA says state law does not apply to us.

Anybody have any knowledge on this point?

David Weisman
Board Certified Real Estate Lawyer
Greenspoon Marder, P.A.
Trade Center South, Suite 700
100 West Cypress Creek Road
Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33309
Phone 954-491-1120
Toll Free 888-491-1120
Direct Phone 954-343-6941
Direct Fax 954-343-6942

[cid:214392700@05082011-33D0]

The information contained in this transmission may be attorney/client privileged and confidential. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have

received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply e-mail.

Pursuant to Internal Revenue Service guidance, be advised that any federal tax advice contained in this written or electronic communication, including any attachments or enclosures, is not intended or written to be used and it

cannot be used by any person or entity for the purpose of (i) avoiding any tax penalties that may be imposed by the Internal Revenue Service or any other U.S. Federal taxing authority or agency or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.

</pre>IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: Pursuant to recently enacted U.S. Treasury Department Regulations, we are now required to advise you that, unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax advice expressed above was neither written nor intended by the sender or this firm to be used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding penalties that may be imposed under U.S. tax law. If any person uses or refers to any such tax advice in promoting, marketing or recommending a partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement to any taxpayer, then the advice should be considered to have been written to support the promotion or marketing by a person other than the sender or this firm of that transaction or matter, and such taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayer's particular circumstances from an independent tax advisor. The information in this email transmission is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, nor the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination or copying of this transmission (including any attachments) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by email reply. Thank you. <pre>

David, I believe the government is subject to state law with respect to premises/lease related occupancy issues. However you would have to check the appropriate venue for bringint the initial suit. It may also be that claims under the lease are governed by the Contract Disputes Act and subject to the claims process of government contracts. Some of this depends on the actual lease and what it incorporates since GSA leases typically incorporate a boilerplate list of clauses, many of are the clauses we usually see in a lease as standard provisions. It's been a long time since I reviewed this area, but I believe there are cases in this area. Don't forget that sovereign immunity may not save the government from contract claims. I'm glad to check my files Neil ________________________________ From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Greg Hass Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 7:15 PM To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] FEDERAL LEASE Wow, someone could probably write a law review article on this one! Did the USA happen to point to any specific authority for their broad claim? I've always been of the understanding that the Feds are only exempt from State law if they can point to a specific Federal law/rule that either specifically exempts them or conflicts with the State law (or if the State law in question specifically exempts the Feds). For example, someone with a Florida CCW license can't carry concealed in the U.S. Post Office because there are federal laws/rules prohibiting it. But then the mailman can't leave the post office and proceed to break the State of Florida's traffic laws by speeding around while delivering your mail because there's no exemption for them to do that. I would challenge them to come up with a specific exemption - if they really are exempt I would think they could readily point to it. But the next problem is that even if the Feds aren't exempt from the law, they could still raise the defense of sovereign immunity if you were to actually try to sue them for the money. And then even if you could overcome that, they're broke! :) Greg Greg Hass, Senior Counsel Office of Law & Policy | FloridaRealtors(r) 7025 Augusta National Drive, Orlando, FL 32822 talk: 407.438.1400, ext. 2421 visit: http://www.floridarealtors.org Be a Star at Florida Realtors Convention & Trade Expo http://convention.floridarealtors.org August 24-28 [cid:214392700@05082011-33C9] From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of David Weisman Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 3:26 PM To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee Subject: [RPPTL LandTen] FEDERAL LEASE The USA has a lease as a tenant. The term expires. Landlord tries to claim holdover rent per statute. Lease is silent. USA says state law does not apply to us. Anybody have any knowledge on this point? David Weisman Board Certified Real Estate Lawyer Greenspoon Marder, P.A. Trade Center South, Suite 700 100 West Cypress Creek Road Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33309 Phone 954-491-1120 Toll Free 888-491-1120 Direct Phone 954-343-6941 Direct Fax 954-343-6942 [cid:214392700@05082011-33D0] The information contained in this transmission may be attorney/client privileged and confidential. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply e-mail. Pursuant to Internal Revenue Service guidance, be advised that any federal tax advice contained in this written or electronic communication, including any attachments or enclosures, is not intended or written to be used and it cannot be used by any person or entity for the purpose of (i) avoiding any tax penalties that may be imposed by the Internal Revenue Service or any other U.S. Federal taxing authority or agency or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein. </pre>IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: Pursuant to recently enacted U.S. Treasury Department Regulations, we are now required to advise you that, unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax advice expressed above was neither written nor intended by the sender or this firm to be used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding penalties that may be imposed under U.S. tax law. If any person uses or refers to any such tax advice in promoting, marketing or recommending a partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement to any taxpayer, then the advice should be considered to have been written to support the promotion or marketing by a person other than the sender or this firm of that transaction or matter, and such taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayer's particular circumstances from an independent tax advisor. The information in this email transmission is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, nor the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination or copying of this transmission (including any attachments) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by email reply. Thank you. <pre>

LC

Leonard Cabral

Sat, Aug 6, 2011 8:07 PM

There is a section in 24 CFR 9** which is specific to HUD owned property
otherwise almost all other programs follow this logic:

24 C.F.R. § 247.6 Eviction.
Title 24 - Housing and Urban Development

Title 24: Housing and Urban Development
PART http://law.justia.com/cfr/title24/24-2.1.1.2.23.html 247EVICTIONS
FROM CERTAIN SUBSIDIZED AND HUD-OWNED PROJECTS
Subpart http://law.justia.com/cfr/title24/24-2.1.1.2.23.1.html
ASubsidized Projects

§ 247.6 Eviction.

(a) General. The landlord shall not evict any tenant except by judicial
action pursuant to State or local law and in accordance with the
requirements of this subpart.

(b) Limitations on allegations of new grounds. In any judicial action
instituted to evict the tenant, the landlord must rely on grounds which were
set forth in the termination notice served on the tenant under this subpart.
The landlord shall not, however, be precluded from relying on grounds about
which he or she had no knowledge at the time the termination notice was
sent.

(c) State and local law. A tenant may rely on State or local law governing
eviction procedures where such law provides the tenant procedural rights
which are in addition to those provided by this subpart, except where such
State or local law has been preempted under part 246 of this chapter or by
other action of the United States.

[48 FR 22915, May 23, 1983. Redesignated and amended at 49 FR 6713, 6715,
Feb. 23, 1984]

From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org
[mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Greg Hass
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 7:15 PM
To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee
Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] FEDERAL LEASE

Wow, someone could probably write a law review article on this one!

Did the USA happen to point to any specific authority for their broad claim?
Ive always been of the understanding that the Feds are only exempt from
State law if they can point to a specific Federal law/rule that either
specifically exempts them or conflicts with the State law (or if the State
law in question specifically exempts the Feds). For example, someone with a
Florida CCW license cant carry concealed in the U.S. Post Office because
there are federal laws/rules prohibiting it. But then the mailman cant
leave the post office and proceed to break the State of Floridas traffic
laws by speeding around while delivering your mail because theres no
exemption for them to do that. I would challenge them to come up with a
specific exemption if they really are exempt I would think they could
readily point to it.

But the next problem is that even if the Feds arent exempt from the law,
they could still raise the defense of sovereign immunity if you were to
actually try to sue them for the money. And then even if you could
overcome that, theyre broke! :-)

Greg

Greg Hass, Senior Counsel

Office of Law & Policy | FloridaRealtors®
7025 Augusta National Drive, Orlando, FL 32822
talk: 407.438.1400, ext. 2421
visit: http://www.floridarealtors.org

Be a Star at Florida Realtors Convention & Trade Expo
http://convention.floridarealtors.org August 24-28

cid:image001.jpg@01C8B0EE.0B556530

From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org
[mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of David Weisman
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 3:26 PM
To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee
Subject: [RPPTL LandTen] FEDERAL LEASE

The USA has a lease as a tenant. The term expires. Landlord tries to claim
holdover rent per statute. Lease is silent. USA says state law does not
apply to us.

Anybody have any knowledge on this point?

David Weisman

Board Certified Real Estate Lawyer

Greenspoon Marder, P.A.

Trade Center South, Suite 700

100 West Cypress Creek Road

Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33309

Phone 954-491-1120

Toll Free 888-491-1120

Direct Phone 954-343-6941

Direct Fax 954-343-6942

Email Logo -Resize 30

The information contained in this transmission may be attorney/client
privileged and confidential. It is intended only for the use of the
individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you
have
received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply
e-mail.

Pursuant to Internal Revenue Service guidance, be advised that any federal
tax advice contained in this written or electronic communication, including
any attachments or enclosures, is not intended or written to be used and it
cannot be used by any person or entity for the purpose of (i) avoiding any
tax penalties that may be imposed by the Internal Revenue Service or any
other U.S. Federal taxing authority or agency or (ii) promoting, marketing
or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.

There is a section in 24 CFR 9** which is specific to HUD owned property otherwise almost all other programs follow this logic: 24 C.F.R. § 247.6 Eviction. Title 24 - Housing and Urban Development Title 24: Housing and Urban Development PART <http://law.justia.com/cfr/title24/24-2.1.1.2.23.html> 247EVICTIONS FROM CERTAIN SUBSIDIZED AND HUD-OWNED PROJECTS Subpart <http://law.justia.com/cfr/title24/24-2.1.1.2.23.1.html> ASubsidized Projects § 247.6 Eviction. (a) General. The landlord shall not evict any tenant except by judicial action pursuant to State or local law and in accordance with the requirements of this subpart. (b) Limitations on allegations of new grounds. In any judicial action instituted to evict the tenant, the landlord must rely on grounds which were set forth in the termination notice served on the tenant under this subpart. The landlord shall not, however, be precluded from relying on grounds about which he or she had no knowledge at the time the termination notice was sent. (c) State and local law. A tenant may rely on State or local law governing eviction procedures where such law provides the tenant procedural rights which are in addition to those provided by this subpart, except where such State or local law has been preempted under part 246 of this chapter or by other action of the United States. [48 FR 22915, May 23, 1983. Redesignated and amended at 49 FR 6713, 6715, Feb. 23, 1984] _____ From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Greg Hass Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 7:15 PM To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] FEDERAL LEASE Wow, someone could probably write a law review article on this one! Did the USA happen to point to any specific authority for their broad claim? Ive always been of the understanding that the Feds are only exempt from State law if they can point to a specific Federal law/rule that either specifically exempts them or conflicts with the State law (or if the State law in question specifically exempts the Feds). For example, someone with a Florida CCW license cant carry concealed in the U.S. Post Office because there are federal laws/rules prohibiting it. But then the mailman cant leave the post office and proceed to break the State of Floridas traffic laws by speeding around while delivering your mail because theres no exemption for them to do that. I would challenge them to come up with a specific exemption if they really are exempt I would think they could readily point to it. But the next problem is that even if the Feds arent exempt from the law, they could still raise the defense of sovereign immunity if you were to actually try to sue them for the money. And then even if you could overcome that, theyre broke! :-) Greg Greg Hass, Senior Counsel Office of Law & Policy | FloridaRealtors® 7025 Augusta National Drive, Orlando, FL 32822 talk: 407.438.1400, ext. 2421 visit: http://www.floridarealtors.org Be a Star at Florida Realtors Convention & Trade Expo http://convention.floridarealtors.org August 24-28 cid:image001.jpg@01C8B0EE.0B556530 From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of David Weisman Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 3:26 PM To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee Subject: [RPPTL LandTen] FEDERAL LEASE The USA has a lease as a tenant. The term expires. Landlord tries to claim holdover rent per statute. Lease is silent. USA says state law does not apply to us. Anybody have any knowledge on this point? David Weisman Board Certified Real Estate Lawyer Greenspoon Marder, P.A. Trade Center South, Suite 700 100 West Cypress Creek Road Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33309 Phone 954-491-1120 Toll Free 888-491-1120 Direct Phone 954-343-6941 Direct Fax 954-343-6942 Email Logo -Resize 30 The information contained in this transmission may be attorney/client privileged and confidential. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply e-mail. Pursuant to Internal Revenue Service guidance, be advised that any federal tax advice contained in this written or electronic communication, including any attachments or enclosures, is not intended or written to be used and it cannot be used by any person or entity for the purpose of (i) avoiding any tax penalties that may be imposed by the Internal Revenue Service or any other U.S. Federal taxing authority or agency or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.

GH

Greg Hass

Wed, Aug 31, 2011 7:21 PM

My understanding is that the federal Protecting Tenants at Foreclosure Act does not give any protection to a tenant living in a home that is the subject of a Florida tax deed sale. However, it does protect the tenant where an association forecloses an assessment lien. Correct?

Thanks,
Greg

Greg Hass, Senior Counsel

Office of Law & Policy | FloridaRealtors(r)
7025 Augusta National Drive, Orlando, FL 32822
talk: 407.438.1400, ext. 2421
visit: http://www.floridarealtors.org

The Voice for Real Estate(r) in Florida

[cid:image001.jpg@01C8B0EE.0B556530]

My understanding is that the federal Protecting Tenants at Foreclosure Act does not give any protection to a tenant living in a home that is the subject of a Florida tax deed sale. However, it does protect the tenant where an association forecloses an assessment lien. Correct? Thanks, Greg Greg Hass, Senior Counsel Office of Law & Policy | FloridaRealtors(r) 7025 Augusta National Drive, Orlando, FL 32822 talk: 407.438.1400, ext. 2421 visit: http://www.floridarealtors.org The Voice for Real Estate(r) in Florida [cid:image001.jpg@01C8B0EE.0B556530]

SW

Shane Weaver

Thu, Sep 1, 2011 3:41 PM

Greg,

Any foreclosure of a dwelling or residential property is subject to the PTFA. The Act does not make any distinctions between bank foreclosures, association liens, mechanic's liens, etc. So if a tax lien must be foreclosed upon, then it too should fall under the Act.

Sincerely,
Shane

Shane Weaver, Esq.
Legal Aid Society of Palm Beach County
423 Fern Street, Suite 200
West Palm Beach, FL 33401
Tel. (561) 822-9785
Fax (561) 822-9885

From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Greg Hass
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:21 PM
To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee
Subject: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens

My understanding is that the federal Protecting Tenants at Foreclosure Act does not give any protection to a tenant living in a home that is the subject of a Florida tax deed sale. However, it does protect the tenant where an association forecloses an assessment lien. Correct?

Thanks,
Greg

Greg Hass, Senior Counsel

Office of Law & Policy | FloridaRealtors(r)
7025 Augusta National Drive, Orlando, FL 32822
talk: 407.438.1400, ext. 2421
visit: http://www.floridarealtors.org

The Voice for Real Estate(r) in Florida

[cid:image001.jpg@01CC6893.FB72D5B0]

Greg, Any foreclosure of a dwelling or residential property is subject to the PTFA. The Act does not make any distinctions between bank foreclosures, association liens, mechanic's liens, etc. So if a tax lien must be foreclosed upon, then it too should fall under the Act. Sincerely, Shane Shane Weaver, Esq. Legal Aid Society of Palm Beach County 423 Fern Street, Suite 200 West Palm Beach, FL 33401 Tel. (561) 822-9785 Fax (561) 822-9885 From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Greg Hass Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:21 PM To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee Subject: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens My understanding is that the federal Protecting Tenants at Foreclosure Act does not give any protection to a tenant living in a home that is the subject of a Florida tax deed sale. However, it does protect the tenant where an association forecloses an assessment lien. Correct? Thanks, Greg Greg Hass, Senior Counsel Office of Law & Policy | FloridaRealtors(r) 7025 Augusta National Drive, Orlando, FL 32822 talk: 407.438.1400, ext. 2421 visit: http://www.floridarealtors.org The Voice for Real Estate(r) in Florida [cid:image001.jpg@01CC6893.FB72D5B0]

CS

Cary Sabol

Thu, Sep 1, 2011 3:48 PM

Greg,

My two cents: I don't believe a Tax Deed Sale is a "foreclosure" as there are no court/foreclosure proceedings required. It's more of an administrative or levy situation. From what I know, the Tax Collector sends out Notice and the Clerk holds the public auction, but there are no formal court proceedings or a judgment, so I don't that makes it a "foreclosure." However, I have been wrong before, so take it for what it's worth (i.e. 2 cents).
Cary
Cary P. Sabol, Esq.
P.O. Box 15981
West Palm Beach, Florida 33416
Phone: (561) 281-2744

Confidentiality Notice: This email transmission and any attachments are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein is STRICTLY PROHIBITED.

From: Shane Weaver sweaver@legalaidpbc.org
To: 'RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee' landten@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens

Greg,

Anyforeclosure of a dwelling or residential property is
subject to the PTFA. The Act does not make any distinctions between bank
foreclosures, association liens, mechanic’s liens, etc. So if a tax lien
must be foreclosed upon, then it too should fall under the Act.

Sincerely,
Shane

Shane Weaver, Esq.
Legal Aid Society of Palm Beach
County
423 Fern Street, Suite 200
West Palm Beach, FL 33401
Tel. (561) 822-9785
Fax (561) 822-9885

From:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org
[mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Greg Hass
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:21 PM
To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee
Subject: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens

My understanding is that the
federal Protecting Tenants at Foreclosure Act does not give any protection to a
tenant living in a home that is the subject of a Florida tax deed sale.
However, it does protect the tenant where an association forecloses an assessment
lien. Correct?

Thanks,
Greg

Greg Hass, Senior Counsel

Office of Law & Policy |FloridaRealtors®
7025 Augusta National Drive, Orlando, FL 32822
talk:407.438.1400, ext. 2421
visit:http://www.floridarealtors.org

The Voice for Real Estate® in Florida

landten mailing list
landten@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/landten

Greg, My two cents: I don't believe a Tax Deed Sale is a "foreclosure" as there are no court/foreclosure proceedings required. It's more of an administrative or levy situation. From what I know, the Tax Collector sends out Notice and the Clerk holds the public auction, but there are no formal court proceedings or a judgment, so I don't that makes it a "foreclosure." However, I have been wrong before, so take it for what it's worth (i.e. 2 cents). Cary Cary P. Sabol, Esq. P.O. Box 15981 West Palm Beach, Florida 33416 Phone: (561) 281-2744 Confidentiality Notice: This email transmission and any attachments are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. From: Shane Weaver <sweaver@legalaidpbc.org> To: 'RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee' <landten@lists.flabarrpptl.org> Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens Greg, Anyforeclosure of a dwelling or residential property is subject to the PTFA. The Act does not make any distinctions between bank foreclosures, association liens, mechanic’s liens, etc. So if a tax lien must be foreclosed upon, then it too should fall under the Act. Sincerely, Shane Shane Weaver, Esq. Legal Aid Society of Palm Beach County 423 Fern Street, Suite 200 West Palm Beach, FL 33401 Tel. (561) 822-9785 Fax (561) 822-9885 From:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Greg Hass Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:21 PM To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee Subject: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens My understanding is that the federal Protecting Tenants at Foreclosure Act does not give any protection to a tenant living in a home that is the subject of a Florida tax deed sale. However, it does protect the tenant where an association forecloses an assessment lien. Correct? Thanks, Greg Greg Hass, Senior Counsel Office of Law & Policy |FloridaRealtors® 7025 Augusta National Drive, Orlando, FL 32822 talk:407.438.1400, ext. 2421 visit:http://www.floridarealtors.org The Voice for Real Estate® in Florida _______________________________________________ landten mailing list landten@lists.flabarrpptl.org http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/landten

GH

Greg Hass

Thu, Sep 1, 2011 4:54 PM

Thanks Shane and Cary. I’ve been leaning towards Cary’s view since I don’t believe the word “foreclosure” is actually used anywhere in the tax certificate / tax deed statutes. However, I have seen the “F” word used loosely in old seminar materials I have on the subject. So while the statute might not describe the process as a “foreclosure”, it does appear to have several characteristics of a foreclosure which lends credence to Cary’s argument. It will be very interesting to see what a circuit judge will do when faced with a tenant trying to use the PTFA as a shield when the tax deed grantee shows them this statute:

197.562 Grantee of tax deed entitled to immediate possession.—Any person, firm, corporation, or county that is the grantee of any tax deed under this law shall be entitled to the immediate possession of the lands described in the deed. If a demand for possession is refused, the purchaser may apply to the circuit court for a writ of assistance upon 5 days’ notice directed to the person refusing to deliver possession. Upon service of the responsive pleadings, if any, the matter shall proceed as in chancery cases. If the court finds for the applicant, an order shall be issued by the court directing the sheriff to put the grantee in possession of the lands.

Regards,
Greg

From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Cary Sabol
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 11:48 AM
To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee
Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens

Greg,

My two cents: I don't believe a Tax Deed Sale is a "foreclosure" as there are no court/foreclosure proceedings required. It's more of an administrative or levy situation. From what I know, the Tax Collector sends out Notice and the Clerk holds the public auction, but there are no formal court proceedings or a judgment, so I don't that makes it a "foreclosure." However, I have been wrong before, so take it for what it's worth (i.e. 2 cents).
Cary
Cary P. Sabol, Esq.
P.O. Box 15981
West Palm Beach, Florida 33416
Phone: (561) 281-2744

Confidentiality Notice: This email transmission and any attachments are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein is STRICTLY PROHIBITED.

From: Shane Weaver sweaver@legalaidpbc.org
To: 'RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee' landten@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens
Greg,

Any foreclosure of a dwelling or residential property is subject to the PTFA. The Act does not make any distinctions between bank foreclosures, association liens, mechanic’s liens, etc. So if a tax lien must be foreclosed upon, then it too should fall under the Act.

Sincerely,
Shane

Shane Weaver, Esq.
Legal Aid Society of Palm Beach County
423 Fern Street, Suite 200
West Palm Beach, FL 33401
Tel. (561) 822-9785
Fax (561) 822-9885

From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Greg Hass
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:21 PM
To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee
Subject: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens

My understanding is that the federal Protecting Tenants at Foreclosure Act does not give any protection to a tenant living in a home that is the subject of a Florida tax deed sale. However, it does protect the tenant where an association forecloses an assessment lien. Correct?

Thanks,
Greg

Greg Hass, Senior Counsel

Office of Law & Policy | FloridaRealtors®
7025 Augusta National Drive, Orlando, FL 32822
talk: 407.438.1400, ext. 2421
visit: http://www.floridarealtors.org

The Voice for Real Estate® in Florida

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landten@lists.flabarrpptl.org mailto:landten@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/landten

Thanks Shane and Cary. I’ve been leaning towards Cary’s view since I don’t believe the word “foreclosure” is actually used anywhere in the tax certificate / tax deed statutes. However, I have seen the “F” word used loosely in old seminar materials I have on the subject. So while the statute might not describe the process as a “foreclosure”, it does appear to have several characteristics of a foreclosure which lends credence to Cary’s argument. It will be very interesting to see what a circuit judge will do when faced with a tenant trying to use the PTFA as a shield when the tax deed grantee shows them this statute: 197.562 Grantee of tax deed entitled to immediate possession.—Any person, firm, corporation, or county that is the grantee of any tax deed under this law shall be entitled to the immediate possession of the lands described in the deed. If a demand for possession is refused, the purchaser may apply to the circuit court for a writ of assistance upon 5 days’ notice directed to the person refusing to deliver possession. Upon service of the responsive pleadings, if any, the matter shall proceed as in chancery cases. If the court finds for the applicant, an order shall be issued by the court directing the sheriff to put the grantee in possession of the lands. Regards, Greg From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Cary Sabol Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 11:48 AM To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens Greg, My two cents: I don't believe a Tax Deed Sale is a "foreclosure" as there are no court/foreclosure proceedings required. It's more of an administrative or levy situation. From what I know, the Tax Collector sends out Notice and the Clerk holds the public auction, but there are no formal court proceedings or a judgment, so I don't that makes it a "foreclosure." However, I have been wrong before, so take it for what it's worth (i.e. 2 cents). Cary Cary P. Sabol, Esq. P.O. Box 15981 West Palm Beach, Florida 33416 Phone: (561) 281-2744 Confidentiality Notice: This email transmission and any attachments are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. From: Shane Weaver <sweaver@legalaidpbc.org> To: 'RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee' <landten@lists.flabarrpptl.org> Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens Greg, Any foreclosure of a dwelling or residential property is subject to the PTFA. The Act does not make any distinctions between bank foreclosures, association liens, mechanic’s liens, etc. So if a tax lien must be foreclosed upon, then it too should fall under the Act. Sincerely, Shane Shane Weaver, Esq. Legal Aid Society of Palm Beach County 423 Fern Street, Suite 200 West Palm Beach, FL 33401 Tel. (561) 822-9785 Fax (561) 822-9885 From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Greg Hass Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:21 PM To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee Subject: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens My understanding is that the federal Protecting Tenants at Foreclosure Act does not give any protection to a tenant living in a home that is the subject of a Florida tax deed sale. However, it does protect the tenant where an association forecloses an assessment lien. Correct? Thanks, Greg Greg Hass, Senior Counsel Office of Law & Policy | FloridaRealtors® 7025 Augusta National Drive, Orlando, FL 32822 talk: 407.438.1400, ext. 2421 visit: http://www.floridarealtors.org The Voice for Real Estate® in Florida [cid:image001.jpg@01C8B0EE.0B556530] _______________________________________________ landten mailing list landten@lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:landten@lists.flabarrpptl.org> http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/landten

SW

Shane Weaver

Thu, Sep 1, 2011 5:38 PM

I’ll defer to Cary’s better knowledge of the tax sale process, but that could be construed as a non-judicial foreclosure. Keep in mind that there are states where all foreclosures are non-judicial, yet the PTFA applies there regardless. It may be possible to argue that a tax lien/sale is merely a type of non-judicial foreclosure that is still subject to the PTFA. (That’s what I’d argue anyway; there’s no case law on the subject.)

As for Fla. Stat. 197.562, that would just be another state possessory law superseded by the federal PTFA, same as 83.62 and the like.

Shane Weaver, Esq.
Legal Aid Society of Palm Beach County
423 Fern Street, Suite 200
West Palm Beach, FL 33401
Tel. (561) 822-9785
Fax (561) 822-9885

From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Greg Hass
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 12:55 PM
To: Cary Sabol; RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee
Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens

Thanks Shane and Cary. I’ve been leaning towards Cary’s view since I don’t believe the word “foreclosure” is actually used anywhere in the tax certificate / tax deed statutes. However, I have seen the “F” word used loosely in old seminar materials I have on the subject. So while the statute might not describe the process as a “foreclosure”, it does appear to have several characteristics of a foreclosure which lends credence to Cary’s argument. It will be very interesting to see what a circuit judge will do when faced with a tenant trying to use the PTFA as a shield when the tax deed grantee shows them this statute:

197.562Grantee of tax deed entitled to immediate possession.—Any person, firm, corporation, or county that is the grantee of any tax deed under this law shall be entitled to the immediate possession of the lands described in the deed. If a demand for possession is refused, the purchaser may apply to the circuit court for a writ of assistance upon 5 days’ notice directed to the person refusing to deliver possession. Upon service of the responsive pleadings, if any, the matter shall proceed as in chancery cases. If the court finds for the applicant, an order shall be issued by the court directing the sheriff to put the grantee in possession of the lands.

Regards,
Greg

From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Cary Sabol
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 11:48 AM
To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee
Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens

Greg,

My two cents: I don't believe a Tax Deed Sale is a "foreclosure" as there are no court/foreclosure proceedings required. It's more of an administrative or levy situation. From what I know, the Tax Collector sends out Notice and the Clerk holds the public auction, but there are no formal court proceedings or a judgment, so I don't that makes it a "foreclosure." However, I have been wrong before, so take it for what it's worth (i.e. 2 cents).
Cary
Cary P. Sabol, Esq.
P.O. Box 15981
West Palm Beach, Florida 33416
Phone: (561) 281-2744

Confidentiality Notice: This email transmission and any attachments are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein is STRICTLY PROHIBITED.

From: Shane Weaver sweaver@legalaidpbc.org
To: 'RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee' landten@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens
Greg,

Any foreclosure of a dwelling or residential property is subject to the PTFA. The Act does not make any distinctions between bank foreclosures, association liens, mechanic’s liens, etc. So if a tax lien must be foreclosed upon, then it too should fall under the Act.

Sincerely,
Shane

Shane Weaver, Esq.
Legal Aid Society of Palm Beach County
423 Fern Street, Suite 200
West Palm Beach, FL 33401
Tel. (561) 822-9785
Fax (561) 822-9885

From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Greg Hass
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:21 PM
To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee
Subject: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens

My understanding is that the federal Protecting Tenants at Foreclosure Act does not give any protection to a tenant living in a home that is the subject of a Florida tax deed sale. However, it does protect the tenant where an association forecloses an assessment lien. Correct?

Thanks,
Greg

Greg Hass, Senior Counsel

Office of Law & Policy | FloridaRealtors®
7025 Augusta National Drive, Orlando, FL 32822
talk: 407.438.1400, ext. 2421
visit: http://www.floridarealtors.org

The Voice for Real Estate® in Florida

[cid:image001.jpg@01CC68AA.B7A0CEC0]

landten mailing list
landten@lists.flabarrpptl.org mailto:landten@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/landten

I’ll defer to Cary’s better knowledge of the tax sale process, but that could be construed as a non-judicial foreclosure. Keep in mind that there are states where all foreclosures are non-judicial, yet the PTFA applies there regardless. It may be possible to argue that a tax lien/sale is merely a type of non-judicial foreclosure that is still subject to the PTFA. (That’s what I’d argue anyway; there’s no case law on the subject.) As for Fla. Stat. 197.562, that would just be another state possessory law superseded by the federal PTFA, same as 83.62 and the like. Shane Weaver, Esq. Legal Aid Society of Palm Beach County 423 Fern Street, Suite 200 West Palm Beach, FL 33401 Tel. (561) 822-9785 Fax (561) 822-9885 From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Greg Hass Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 12:55 PM To: Cary Sabol; RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens Thanks Shane and Cary. I’ve been leaning towards Cary’s view since I don’t believe the word “foreclosure” is actually used anywhere in the tax certificate / tax deed statutes. However, I have seen the “F” word used loosely in old seminar materials I have on the subject. So while the statute might not describe the process as a “foreclosure”, it does appear to have several characteristics of a foreclosure which lends credence to Cary’s argument. It will be very interesting to see what a circuit judge will do when faced with a tenant trying to use the PTFA as a shield when the tax deed grantee shows them this statute: 197.562Grantee of tax deed entitled to immediate possession.—Any person, firm, corporation, or county that is the grantee of any tax deed under this law shall be entitled to the immediate possession of the lands described in the deed. If a demand for possession is refused, the purchaser may apply to the circuit court for a writ of assistance upon 5 days’ notice directed to the person refusing to deliver possession. Upon service of the responsive pleadings, if any, the matter shall proceed as in chancery cases. If the court finds for the applicant, an order shall be issued by the court directing the sheriff to put the grantee in possession of the lands. Regards, Greg From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Cary Sabol Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 11:48 AM To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens Greg, My two cents: I don't believe a Tax Deed Sale is a "foreclosure" as there are no court/foreclosure proceedings required. It's more of an administrative or levy situation. From what I know, the Tax Collector sends out Notice and the Clerk holds the public auction, but there are no formal court proceedings or a judgment, so I don't that makes it a "foreclosure." However, I have been wrong before, so take it for what it's worth (i.e. 2 cents). Cary Cary P. Sabol, Esq. P.O. Box 15981 West Palm Beach, Florida 33416 Phone: (561) 281-2744 Confidentiality Notice: This email transmission and any attachments are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. From: Shane Weaver <sweaver@legalaidpbc.org> To: 'RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee' <landten@lists.flabarrpptl.org> Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens Greg, Any foreclosure of a dwelling or residential property is subject to the PTFA. The Act does not make any distinctions between bank foreclosures, association liens, mechanic’s liens, etc. So if a tax lien must be foreclosed upon, then it too should fall under the Act. Sincerely, Shane Shane Weaver, Esq. Legal Aid Society of Palm Beach County 423 Fern Street, Suite 200 West Palm Beach, FL 33401 Tel. (561) 822-9785 Fax (561) 822-9885 From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Greg Hass Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:21 PM To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee Subject: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens My understanding is that the federal Protecting Tenants at Foreclosure Act does not give any protection to a tenant living in a home that is the subject of a Florida tax deed sale. However, it does protect the tenant where an association forecloses an assessment lien. Correct? Thanks, Greg Greg Hass, Senior Counsel Office of Law & Policy | FloridaRealtors® 7025 Augusta National Drive, Orlando, FL 32822 talk: 407.438.1400, ext. 2421 visit: http://www.floridarealtors.org The Voice for Real Estate® in Florida [cid:image001.jpg@01CC68AA.B7A0CEC0] _______________________________________________ landten mailing list landten@lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:landten@lists.flabarrpptl.org> http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/landten

AC

Arlene C. Udick

Thu, Sep 1, 2011 7:39 PM

This begs the question whether the federal law trumps or supersedes the state law. Arlene

Arlene C. Udick, Esq.

Real Estate Law Solutions

P.O. Box 2094

The Villages, FL 32158-2094

(O) 352-391-1888

(F) 352-391-9128

EMAIL CONFIDENTIALITY: The information contained in this electronic message may contain attorney-client privilege and confidential information intended only for use of the owner of the email address listed as the recipient of this message. If you are not the intended recipient of this email message you are hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by return email and/or by telephone at 352-391-1888.

From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Shane Weaver
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 1:38 PM
To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee
Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens

I’ll defer to Cary’s better knowledge of the tax sale process, but that could be construed as a non-judicial foreclosure. Keep in mind that there are states where all foreclosures are non-judicial, yet the PTFA applies there regardless. It may be possible to argue that a tax lien/sale is merely a type of non-judicial foreclosure that is still subject to the PTFA. (That’s what I’d argue anyway; there’s no case law on the subject.)

As for Fla. Stat. 197.562, that would just be another state possessory law superseded by the federal PTFA, same as 83.62 and the like.

Shane Weaver, Esq.

Legal Aid Society of Palm Beach County

423 Fern Street, Suite 200

West Palm Beach, FL 33401

Tel. (561) 822-9785

Fax (561) 822-9885

From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Greg Hass
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 12:55 PM
To: Cary Sabol; RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee
Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens

Thanks Shane and Cary. I’ve been leaning towards Cary’s view since I don’t believe the word “foreclosure” is actually used anywhere in the tax certificate / tax deed statutes. However, I have seen the “F” word used loosely in old seminar materials I have on the subject. So while the statute might not describe the process as a “foreclosure”, it does appear to have several characteristics of a foreclosure which lends credence to Cary’s argument. It will be very interesting to see what a circuit judge will do when faced with a tenant trying to use the PTFA as a shield when the tax deed grantee shows them this statute:

197.562Grantee of tax deed entitled to immediate possession.—Any person, firm, corporation, or county that is the grantee of any tax deed under this law shall be entitled to the immediate possession of the lands described in the deed. If a demand for possession is refused, the purchaser may apply to the circuit court for a writ of assistance upon 5 days’ notice directed to the person refusing to deliver possession. Upon service of the responsive pleadings, if any, the matter shall proceed as in chancery cases. If the court finds for the applicant, an order shall be issued by the court directing the sheriff to put the grantee in possession of the lands.

Regards,

Greg

From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Cary Sabol
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 11:48 AM
To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee
Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens

Greg,

My two cents: I don't believe a Tax Deed Sale is a "foreclosure" as there are no court/foreclosure proceedings required. It's more of an administrative or levy situation. From what I know, the Tax Collector sends out Notice and the Clerk holds the public auction, but there are no formal court proceedings or a judgment, so I don't that makes it a "foreclosure." However, I have been wrong before, so take it for what it's worth (i.e. 2 cents).

Cary

Cary P. Sabol, Esq.

P.O. Box 15981

West Palm Beach, Florida 33416

Phone: (561) 281-2744

Confidentiality Notice: This email transmission and any attachments are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein is STRICTLY PROHIBITED.

From: Shane Weaver sweaver@legalaidpbc.org
To: 'RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee' landten@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens

Greg,

Any foreclosure of a dwelling or residential property is subject to the PTFA. The Act does not make any distinctions between bank foreclosures, association liens, mechanic’s liens, etc. So if a tax lien must be foreclosed upon, then it too should fall under the Act.

Sincerely,

Shane

Shane Weaver, Esq.

Legal Aid Society of Palm Beach County

423 Fern Street, Suite 200

West Palm Beach, FL 33401

Tel. (561) 822-9785

Fax (561) 822-9885

From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Greg Hass
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:21 PM
To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee
Subject: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens

My understanding is that the federal Protecting Tenants at Foreclosure Act does not give any protection to a tenant living in a home that is the subject of a Florida tax deed sale. However, it does protect the tenant where an association forecloses an assessment lien. Correct?

Thanks,

Greg

Greg Hass, Senior Counsel

Office of Law & Policy | FloridaRealtors®
7025 Augusta National Drive, Orlando, FL 32822
talk: 407.438.1400, ext. 2421
visit: http://www.floridarealtors.org

The Voice for Real Estate® in Florida

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This begs the question whether the federal law trumps or supersedes the state law. Arlene Arlene C. Udick, Esq. Real Estate Law Solutions P.O. Box 2094 The Villages, FL 32158-2094 (O) 352-391-1888 (F) 352-391-9128 EMAIL CONFIDENTIALITY: The information contained in this electronic message may contain attorney-client privilege and confidential information intended only for use of the owner of the email address listed as the recipient of this message. If you are not the intended recipient of this email message you are hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by return email and/or by telephone at 352-391-1888. From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Shane Weaver Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 1:38 PM To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens I’ll defer to Cary’s better knowledge of the tax sale process, but that could be construed as a non-judicial foreclosure. Keep in mind that there are states where all foreclosures are non-judicial, yet the PTFA applies there regardless. It may be possible to argue that a tax lien/sale is merely a type of non-judicial foreclosure that is still subject to the PTFA. (That’s what I’d argue anyway; there’s no case law on the subject.) As for Fla. Stat. 197.562, that would just be another state possessory law superseded by the federal PTFA, same as 83.62 and the like. Shane Weaver, Esq. Legal Aid Society of Palm Beach County 423 Fern Street, Suite 200 West Palm Beach, FL 33401 Tel. (561) 822-9785 Fax (561) 822-9885 From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Greg Hass Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 12:55 PM To: Cary Sabol; RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens Thanks Shane and Cary. I’ve been leaning towards Cary’s view since I don’t believe the word “foreclosure” is actually used anywhere in the tax certificate / tax deed statutes. However, I have seen the “F” word used loosely in old seminar materials I have on the subject. So while the statute might not describe the process as a “foreclosure”, it does appear to have several characteristics of a foreclosure which lends credence to Cary’s argument. It will be very interesting to see what a circuit judge will do when faced with a tenant trying to use the PTFA as a shield when the tax deed grantee shows them this statute: 197.562Grantee of tax deed entitled to immediate possession.—Any person, firm, corporation, or county that is the grantee of any tax deed under this law shall be entitled to the immediate possession of the lands described in the deed. If a demand for possession is refused, the purchaser may apply to the circuit court for a writ of assistance upon 5 days’ notice directed to the person refusing to deliver possession. Upon service of the responsive pleadings, if any, the matter shall proceed as in chancery cases. If the court finds for the applicant, an order shall be issued by the court directing the sheriff to put the grantee in possession of the lands. Regards, Greg From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Cary Sabol Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 11:48 AM To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens Greg, My two cents: I don't believe a Tax Deed Sale is a "foreclosure" as there are no court/foreclosure proceedings required. It's more of an administrative or levy situation. From what I know, the Tax Collector sends out Notice and the Clerk holds the public auction, but there are no formal court proceedings or a judgment, so I don't that makes it a "foreclosure." However, I have been wrong before, so take it for what it's worth (i.e. 2 cents). Cary Cary P. Sabol, Esq. P.O. Box 15981 West Palm Beach, Florida 33416 Phone: (561) 281-2744 Confidentiality Notice: This email transmission and any attachments are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. From: Shane Weaver <sweaver@legalaidpbc.org> To: 'RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee' <landten@lists.flabarrpptl.org> Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens Greg, Any foreclosure of a dwelling or residential property is subject to the PTFA. The Act does not make any distinctions between bank foreclosures, association liens, mechanic’s liens, etc. So if a tax lien must be foreclosed upon, then it too should fall under the Act. Sincerely, Shane Shane Weaver, Esq. Legal Aid Society of Palm Beach County 423 Fern Street, Suite 200 West Palm Beach, FL 33401 Tel. (561) 822-9785 Fax (561) 822-9885 From: landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:landten-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Greg Hass Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:21 PM To: RPPTL Landlord Tenant Committee Subject: [RPPTL LandTen] tenants and tax deeds / assessment liens My understanding is that the federal Protecting Tenants at Foreclosure Act does not give any protection to a tenant living in a home that is the subject of a Florida tax deed sale. However, it does protect the tenant where an association forecloses an assessment lien. Correct? Thanks, Greg Greg Hass, Senior Counsel Office of Law & Policy | FloridaRealtors® 7025 Augusta National Drive, Orlando, FL 32822 talk: 407.438.1400, ext. 2421 visit: http://www.floridarealtors.org The Voice for Real Estate® in Florida cid:image001.jpg@01C8B0EE.0B556530 _______________________________________________ landten mailing list landten@lists.flabarrpptl.org http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/landten