Why are we questioning this now. We also had a series of emails on this topic about 2 years ago.

The matter seems well settled by the 2 cases attached.  If anything, we, as a Bar committee, should be doing everything within our power to protect our clients from poorly prepared layperson drafted construction liens.  I  have one client who just lost out on 3 liens prepared by a Jacksonville NTO company that was clueless on how to research and prepare a construction lien.

Regards,

Robert B. Worman
Worman & Sheffler, P.A.
2707 West Fairbanks Avenue
Suite 200
Winter Park, FL 32789
407 843-5353
rworman@wormanlaw.commailto:rworman@wormanlaw.com
www.wormanlaw.comhttp://www.wormanlaw.com/

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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Weintraub, Lee
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:29 AM
To: Dan Vega DVega@TEVTLaw.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Regardless, that is the law.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???

Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.

As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it.  Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential.  On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation.  They draft their own contracts all the time.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Lienors are usually companies.  Companies cannot rep themselves.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course).  But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it.  NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?

Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:

The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone

Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group

1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
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The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.commailto:care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?

The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.

Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.

After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215

www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com

CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion

CLC-Discussion mailing list
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http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion

Not the point.

Of course it would be ideal if a lawyer always prepares the lien.

The point I am trying to make is that a notice company does not actually prepare the lien.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:55 AM, Steve Thompson <sthompson@thompsonbrookslaw.commailto:sthompson@thompsonbrookslaw.com> wrote:

I think we can all agree that there is a variety of legal analysis that takes place in lien preparation such as:

• Is it timely? (i.e. what exactly is last date of work or provision of materials?)
• Have conditions precedent been met (NTO – have all parties been properly served?)
• Privity issues (i.e. tenant involved? Exculpatory language in recorded landlord’s lease?)

These are legal issues that need a lawyer’s analysis.  I have prospective clients approach me all the time with potentially defective liens they recorded themselves.  Unfortunately, they often do so after the time for amendment.

Steven F. Thompson, Esq.
Thompson Commercial Law Group
412 E. Madison St., Ste 900
Tampa, Fl. 33602
813-387-1821
Fax 813-387-1824
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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Dan Vega
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???

Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.

As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it.  Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential.  On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation.  They draft their own contracts all the time.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Lienors are usually companies.  Companies cannot rep themselves.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course).  But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it.  NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?

Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:

The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone

Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group

1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
<2b6986.png>http://www.bplegal.com
<9cacb3.png>http://www.bplegal.com/rss.aspx <dcebd0.png>http://twitter.com/BeckerPoliakoff <ea86ca.png>http://www.youtube.com/user/bplawfirm/videos <874eba.png>http://www.linkedin.com/company/becker-&-poliakoff-p.a. <9db15a.png>http://www.facebook.com/beckerpoliakoff

The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.commailto:care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?

The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.

Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.

After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215

www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com

CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion

CLC-Discussion mailing list
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Dan,

If in fact the NTO company is simply acting as a typing service, that is one thing.  If they are exercising discretion on what to put in the lien and what property is lienable, that is the practice of law.  I see both sides of the argument.  It really pops when there is a screw up on the lien.  Then the fingers will start to point.

Larry

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:55 AM
To: Larry Leiby Leiby@mkpalaw.com
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

You all are blowing this way out of proportion.

The lienor is signing a form that includes data provided by the lienor.

The notice Company is not preparing the lien.

The notice Company facilitates the lienor’s preparation of the lien and records it for a fee.

In South Florida, this service is extremely valuable to the very people who are actually physically performing the work.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:51 AM, Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com> wrote:
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice.  The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel.  Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee.  That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself.  The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others.  Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue.  Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions.  Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them.  Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition).  Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question.  The possibility is there.

Happy Holidays, Larry

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???

Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.

As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it.  Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential.  On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation.  They draft their own contracts all the time.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Lienors are usually companies.  Companies cannot rep themselves.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course).  But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it.  NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?

Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:

The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone

Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group

1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
<2b6986.png>http://www.bplegal.com
<9cacb3.png>http://www.bplegal.com/rss.aspx <dcebd0.png>http://twitter.com/BeckerPoliakoff <ea86ca.png>http://www.youtube.com/user/bplawfirm/videos <874eba.png>http://www.linkedin.com/company/becker-&-poliakoff-p.a. <9db15a.png>http://www.facebook.com/beckerpoliakoff

The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.commailto:care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?

The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.

Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.

After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215

www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com

CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion

CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion

From where does the legal description come?  Or the determination of the true property owner?  Or the determination that the NOC’s legal description is accurate?  I have prepared many liens where these were nightmare issues and you can’t just rely on an NOC.  You can rely on the NOC for NTO purposes, but not for liening property.

For what service is the NTO company charging a fee – use of its form?  The lienor can get that from the statute.  The NTO company (and I have represented them) actually works up the lien, gathering info from the lienor, then looking at title for the rest.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:55 AM
To: Larry Leiby Leiby@mkpalaw.com
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

You all are blowing this way out of proportion.

The lienor is signing a form that includes data provided by the lienor.

The notice Company is not preparing the lien.

The notice Company facilitates the lienor’s preparation of the lien and records it for a fee.

In South Florida, this service is extremely valuable to the very people who are actually physically performing the work.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:51 AM, Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com> wrote:
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice.  The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel.  Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee.  That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself.  The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others.  Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue.  Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions.  Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them.  Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition).  Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question.  The possibility is there.

Happy Holidays, Larry

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???

Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.

As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it.  Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential.  On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation.  They draft their own contracts all the time.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Lienors are usually companies.  Companies cannot rep themselves.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course).  But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it.  NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?

Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:

The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone

Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group

1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
<2b6986.png>http://www.bplegal.com
<9cacb3.png>http://www.bplegal.com/rss.aspx <dcebd0.png>http://twitter.com/BeckerPoliakoff <ea86ca.png>http://www.youtube.com/user/bplawfirm/videos <874eba.png>http://www.linkedin.com/company/becker-&-poliakoff-p.a. <9db15a.png>http://www.facebook.com/beckerpoliakoff

The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.commailto:care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?

The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.

Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.

After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215

www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com

CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussionhttp://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion

CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussionhttp://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion

By the way, I have also represented an NTO company in defense of an unauthorized practice of law complaint from the Florida Bar.  We settled it by the company shutting down its lien preparation services.

From: Weintraub, Lee
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:00 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' DVega@TEVTLaw.com; Larry Leiby Leiby@mkpalaw.com
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

From where does the legal description come?  Or the determination of the true property owner?  Or the determination that the NOC’s legal description is accurate?  I have prepared many liens where these were nightmare issues and you can’t just rely on an NOC.  You can rely on the NOC for NTO purposes, but not for liening property.

For what service is the NTO company charging a fee – use of its form?  The lienor can get that from the statute.  The NTO company (and I have represented them) actually works up the lien, gathering info from the lienor, then looking at title for the rest.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:55 AM
To: Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

You all are blowing this way out of proportion.

The lienor is signing a form that includes data provided by the lienor.

The notice Company is not preparing the lien.

The notice Company facilitates the lienor’s preparation of the lien and records it for a fee.

In South Florida, this service is extremely valuable to the very people who are actually physically performing the work.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:51 AM, Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com> wrote:
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice.  The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel.  Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee.  That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself.  The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others.  Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue.  Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions.  Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them.  Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition).  Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question.  The possibility is there.

Happy Holidays, Larry

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???

Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.

As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it.  Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential.  On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation.  They draft their own contracts all the time.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Lienors are usually companies.  Companies cannot rep themselves.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course).  But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it.  NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?

Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:

The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone

Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group

1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
<2b6986.png>http://www.bplegal.com
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On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?

The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.

Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.

After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215

www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com

CLC-Discussion mailing list
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There is no precedent I am aware of that invalidates a lien solely because it was prepared by a non-lienor non-lawyer.  But there are still two problems with it:  (1) it is the unauthorized practice of law, because you are preparing a legal document which, in many respects, has the same effect as a mortgage – should we let non-lawyers draft those too?; and (2) non-lawyers are exposing their clients to potential liability for filing a fraudulent lien.  There are enough lawyers out there already who do not properly scrutinize their clients’ lien claims to counsel them properly about this potential exposure – i.e., what’s lienable, where’s the backup for these claims, are these for unapproved change orders, etc.? – do we really expect non-lawyers to undertake this analysis at all, much less competently?

Reese J. Henderson, Jr. | Shareholder
Florida Bar Board Certified in Construction Law
Florida Supreme Court Certified Circuit Civil Mediator
G R A Y | R O B I N S O N

50 North Laura Street, Suite 1100 | Jacksonville, Florida 32202
T: 904-598-9929 | F: 904-598-9109 | D: 904-632-8459
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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Larry Leiby
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:51 AM
To: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice.  The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel.  Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee.  That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself.  The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others.  Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue.  Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions.  Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them.  Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition).  Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question.  The possibility is there.

Happy Holidays, Larry

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???

Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.

As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it.  Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential.  On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation.  They draft their own contracts all the time.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Lienors are usually companies.  Companies cannot rep themselves.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course).  But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it.  NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?

Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:

The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone

Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group

1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
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The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.commailto:care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?

The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.

Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.

After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215

www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com

CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
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http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussionhttp://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion

Agreed.

Steven F. Thompson, Esq.
Thompson Commercial Law Group
412 E. Madison St., Ste 900
Tampa, Fl. 33602
813-387-1821
Fax 813-387-1824

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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Partington
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:40 AM
To: Dan Vega DVega@TEVTLaw.com; Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

To me, the preparation of a lien is unquestionably the practice of law. It’s a document that impairs the owner’s title to property, and the nuances of the lien law are a mystery to most lay people, and are perhaps only a bit less a mystery to a lien company. For example, given the issues in determining whether to start the 90 day clock during punchlist work and when, and the nature of the work that may or may not start (or not start) the clock – do any of us think that those folks really do the careful analysis that a lawyer would do. I suspect they ask “when was the last day you were on site working” and that’s about the extent of it. Or what if the lienor gets a request for sworn statement of account or notice of contest of lien?

That said, often the economics of an amount due may not justify the expense of hiring a lawyer, and non-lawyers do things that are unquestionably the practice of law all of the time, from preparing contracts, to title companies closing large real estate transactions – but that doesn’t make it any less the practice of law. The “consumer harm” (which is what the regulators are going to look at) of a small lien is probably likewise small, and the regulator would likely deem it (and evidently has) unworthy of regulation at this point in time.

There’s a balance here – maybe liens of less than $10K are OK for these companies to do, but above that aren’t? I don’t know where the consumer harm/lienor economics balance point is, but it’s a fair consideration.

Bruce D. Partington

Shareholder • Board Certified in Construction Law

PO Box 13010, Pensacola, FL 32591-3010

O (850) 432.1399 C (850) 982.3875 F (850) 432.7340

http://clarkpartington.com/ clarkpartington.com |  mailto:bpartington@clarkpartington.com bpartington@clarkpartington.com |

Clark Partington

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org  [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Dan Vega
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.com mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com >
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org mailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???

Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.

As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it.  Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential.  On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com mailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.com mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com > wrote:

In litigation.  They draft their own contracts all the time.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.com mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com >
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.com mailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com >; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org mailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Lienors are usually companies.  Companies cannot rep themselves.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com mailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.com mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com > wrote:

Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course).  But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it.  NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.com mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com >
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.com mailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com >; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org mailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?

Makes no sense

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com mailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.com mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com > wrote:

The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.

Sent from my iPhone

Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group

1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mail mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Website http://www.bplegal.com  | Connect on LinkedIn http://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813  | Follow Me on Twitter http://twitter.com/leeweintraub
http://www.bplegal.com <2b6986.png>
http://www.bplegal.com/rss.aspx <9cacb3.png>  http://twitter.com/BeckerPoliakoff <dcebd0.png>  http://www.youtube.com/user/bplawfirm/videos <ea86ca.png>  http://www.linkedin.com/company/becker-&-poliakoff-p.a. <874eba.png>  http://www.facebook.com/beckerpoliakoff <9db15a.png>

The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.com mailto:care@bplegal.com .

On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.com mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com > wrote:

Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?

The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com mailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.com mailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com > wrote:

Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.

Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org  [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org mailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.

After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson

500 N Maitland Avenue

Suite 305

Maitland, Fl. 32751

407-645-4500 x 215

www.barrykalmanson.com

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I understand, but does the notice company provide input regarding the preparation of the lien?

Steven F. Thompson, Esq.
Thompson Commercial Law Group
412 E. Madison St., Ste 900
Tampa, Fl. 33602
813-387-1821
Fax 813-387-1824

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WITHOUT THE EXPRESS CONSENT OF THOMPSON COMMERCIAL LAW GROUP.

THANK YOU.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:59 AM
To: Steve Thompson sthompson@thompsonbrookslaw.com
Cc: Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Not the point.

Of course it would be ideal if a lawyer always prepares the lien.

The point I am trying to make is that a notice company does not actually prepare the lien.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com mailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:55 AM, Steve Thompson <sthompson@thompsonbrookslaw.com mailto:sthompson@thompsonbrookslaw.com > wrote:

I think we can all agree that there is a variety of legal analysis that takes place in lien preparation such as:

• Is it timely? (i.e. what exactly is last date of work or provision of materials?)
• Have conditions precedent been met (NTO – have all parties been properly served?)
• Privity issues (i.e. tenant involved? Exculpatory language in recorded landlord’s lease?)

These are legal issues that need a lawyer’s analysis.  I have prospective clients approach me all the time with potentially defective liens they recorded themselves.  Unfortunately, they often do so after the time for amendment.

Steven F. Thompson, Esq.
Thompson Commercial Law Group
412 E. Madison St., Ste 900
Tampa, Fl. 33602
813-387-1821
Fax 813-387-1824

THE ABOVE MAY CONTAIN OR CONSTITUTE A  CONFIDENTIAL
AND PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION. IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED
RECIPIENT, OR IF YOU HAVE OTHERWISE RECEIVED THIS COMMUNICATION
IN ERROR, PLEASE NOTIFY OUR OFFICE BY TELEPHONE
AT (813) 387-1821 [collect] AND INFORM THE OFFICE OF THE ERROR;
AND PLEASE DESTROY OR DELETE THIS MESSAGE. THIS MESSAGE MAY NOT
BE REVIEWED, PRINTED, DISPLAYED, OR RE-TRANSMITTED WITHOUT THE
SENDER'S CONSENT. ALL RIGHTS PROTECTED. THERE MAY BE NO FURTHER
DISTRIBUTION OR PUBLICATION OF THIS COMMUNICATION OR ITS CONTENTS
WITHOUT THE EXPRESS CONSENT OF THOMPSON COMMERCIAL LAW GROUP.

THANK YOU.

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org  [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Dan Vega
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.com mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com >
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org mailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???

Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.

As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it.  Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential.  On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com mailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.com mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com > wrote:

In litigation.  They draft their own contracts all the time.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.com mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com >
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.com mailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com >; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org mailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Lienors are usually companies.  Companies cannot rep themselves.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com mailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.com mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com > wrote:

Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course).  But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it.  NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.com mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com >
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.com mailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com >; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org mailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?

Makes no sense

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com mailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.com mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com > wrote:

The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.

Sent from my iPhone

Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group

1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mail mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Website http://www.bplegal.com  | Connect on LinkedIn http://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813  | Follow Me on Twitter http://twitter.com/leeweintraub
http://www.bplegal.com <2b6986.png>
http://www.bplegal.com/rss.aspx <9cacb3.png>  http://twitter.com/BeckerPoliakoff <dcebd0.png>  http://www.youtube.com/user/bplawfirm/videos <ea86ca.png>  http://www.linkedin.com/company/becker-&-poliakoff-p.a. <874eba.png>  http://www.facebook.com/beckerpoliakoff <9db15a.png>

The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.com mailto:care@bplegal.com .

On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.com mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com > wrote:

Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?

The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com mailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.com mailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com > wrote:

Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.

Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org  [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org mailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.

After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson

500 N Maitland Avenue

Suite 305

Maitland, Fl. 32751

407-645-4500 x 215

www.barrykalmanson.com http://www.barrykalmanson.com

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Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 10:00 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:

From where does the legal description come?  Or the determination of the true property owner?  Or the determination that the NOC’s legal description is accurate?  I have prepared many liens where these were nightmare issues and you can’t just rely on an NOC.  You can rely on the NOC for NTO purposes, but not for liening property.

For what service is the NTO company charging a fee – use of its form?  The lienor can get that from the statute.  The NTO company (and I have represented them) actually works up the lien, gathering info from the lienor, then looking at title for the rest.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:55 AM
To: Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

You all are blowing this way out of proportion.

The lienor is signing a form that includes data provided by the lienor.

The notice Company is not preparing the lien.

The notice Company facilitates the lienor’s preparation of the lien and records it for a fee.

In South Florida, this service is extremely valuable to the very people who are actually physically performing the work.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:51 AM, Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com> wrote:
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice.  The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel.  Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee.  That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself.  The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others.  Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue.  Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions.  Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them.  Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition).  Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question.  The possibility is there.

Happy Holidays, Larry

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???

Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.

As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it.  Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential.  On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation.  They draft their own contracts all the time.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Lienors are usually companies.  Companies cannot rep themselves.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course).  But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it.  NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?

Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:

The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone

Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group

1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
<2b6986.png>http://www.bplegal.com
<9cacb3.png>http://www.bplegal.com/rss.aspx <dcebd0.png>http://twitter.com/BeckerPoliakoff <ea86ca.png>http://www.youtube.com/user/bplawfirm/videos <874eba.png>http://www.linkedin.com/company/becker-&-poliakoff-p.a. <9db15a.png>http://www.facebook.com/beckerpoliakoff

The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.commailto:care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?

The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.

Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.

After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215

www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com

CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion

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Let me chime in as a late-comer to the discussion.

It seems to me that there is no valid reason to invalidate the lien. The non-lawyer lien-preparer may be subject to prosecution for the unauthorized practice of law, but what is the rational for penalizing the lienor?  Aiding and abetting the unauthorized practice of law?  I doubt scienter could be established.

Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.

Board Certified Construction Lawyer

500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305

Maitland, FL 32751

(407) 865-9200

http://www.fcbarneslaw.com/ www.fcbarneslaw.com

rsz_1fcb_lrg_logo

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Larry Leiby
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:51 AM
To: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice.  The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel.  Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee.  That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself.  The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others.  Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue.  Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions.  Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.

I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them.  Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition).  Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question.  The possibility is there.

Happy Holidays, Larry

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' DVega@TEVTLaw.com; 'Weintraub, Lee' lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???

Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.

As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it.  Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential.  On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com wrote:

In litigation.  They draft their own contracts all the time.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Lienors are usually companies.  Companies cannot rep themselves.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com wrote:

Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course).  But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it.  NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?

Makes no sense

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com wrote:

The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.

Sent from my iPhone

Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group

1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mail mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Website http://www.bplegal.com  | Connect on LinkedIn http://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813  | Follow Me on Twitter http://twitter.com/leeweintraub
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On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega DVega@TEVTLaw.com wrote:

Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?

The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com wrote:

Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.

Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.

After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson

500 N Maitland Avenue

Suite 305

Maitland, Fl. 32751

407-645-4500 x 215

www.barrykalmanson.com

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