Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
The argument would be that the lien is unlawful and thus unenforceable when prepared by a non-lawyer for other than himself/herself.
From: Fred Barnes [mailto:fred@fcbarneslaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:07 AM
To: Larry Leiby Leiby@mkpalaw.com; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.' Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; 'Dan Vega' DVega@TEVTLaw.com; 'Weintraub, Lee' lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Let me chime in as a late-comer to the discussion.
It seems to me that there is no valid reason to invalidate the lien. The non-lawyer lien-preparer may be subject to prosecution for the unauthorized practice of law, but what is the rational for penalizing the lienor? Aiding and abetting the unauthorized practice of law? I doubt scienter could be established.
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.comhttp://www.fcbarneslaw.com/
[rsz_1fcb_lrg_logo]
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Larry Leiby
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:51 AM
To: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice. The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel. Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee. That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself. The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others. Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue. Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions. Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them. Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition). Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question. The possibility is there.
Happy Holidays, Larry
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
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The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.commailto:care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com
CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion
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Yes, that’s a start. Works well for most small jobs. Not always so for big jobs.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:05 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: Larry Leiby Leiby@mkpalaw.com; Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Miami Dade property appraiser site. One click away.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 10:00 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
From where does the legal description come? Or the determination of the true property owner? Or the determination that the NOC’s legal description is accurate? I have prepared many liens where these were nightmare issues and you can’t just rely on an NOC. You can rely on the NOC for NTO purposes, but not for liening property.
For what service is the NTO company charging a fee – use of its form? The lienor can get that from the statute. The NTO company (and I have represented them) actually works up the lien, gathering info from the lienor, then looking at title for the rest.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:55 AM
To: Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
You all are blowing this way out of proportion.
The lienor is signing a form that includes data provided by the lienor.
The notice Company is not preparing the lien.
The notice Company facilitates the lienor’s preparation of the lien and records it for a fee.
In South Florida, this service is extremely valuable to the very people who are actually physically performing the work.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:51 AM, Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com> wrote:
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice. The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel. Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee. That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself. The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others. Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue. Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions. Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them. Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition). Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question. The possibility is there.
Happy Holidays, Larry
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
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The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.commailto:care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com
CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussionhttp://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion
CLC-Discussion mailing list
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Is it true that the notice company is not involved in preparing any aspects of the lien?
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
http://www.fcbarneslaw.com/ www.fcbarneslaw.com
rsz_1fcb_lrg_logo
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Dan Vega
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:59 AM
To: Steve Thompson
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Not the point.
Of course it would be ideal if a lawyer always prepares the lien.
The point I am trying to make is that a notice company does not actually prepare the lien.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:55 AM, Steve Thompson sthompson@thompsonbrookslaw.com wrote:
I think we can all agree that there is a variety of legal analysis that takes place in lien preparation such as:
· Is it timely? (i.e. what exactly is last date of work or provision of materials?)
· Have conditions precedent been met (NTO – have all parties been properly served?)
· Privity issues (i.e. tenant involved? Exculpatory language in recorded landlord’s lease?)
These are legal issues that need a lawyer’s analysis. I have prospective clients approach me all the time with potentially defective liens they recorded themselves. Unfortunately, they often do so after the time for amendment.
Steven F. Thompson, Esq.
Thompson Commercial Law Group
412 E. Madison St., Ste 900
Tampa, Fl. 33602
813-387-1821
Fax 813-387-1824
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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Dan Vega
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mail mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Website http://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedIn http://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitter http://twitter.com/leeweintraub
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The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega DVega@TEVTLaw.com wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
CLC-Discussion mailing list
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There is precedent for invalidating a will prepared by a non-lawyer on that basis.
From: Larry Leiby [mailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:09 AM
To: Fred Barnes fred@fcbarneslaw.com; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.' Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; 'Dan Vega' DVega@TEVTLaw.com; Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
The argument would be that the lien is unlawful and thus unenforceable when prepared by a non-lawyer for other than himself/herself.
From: Fred Barnes [mailto:fred@fcbarneslaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:07 AM
To: Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.' <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Let me chime in as a late-comer to the discussion.
It seems to me that there is no valid reason to invalidate the lien. The non-lawyer lien-preparer may be subject to prosecution for the unauthorized practice of law, but what is the rational for penalizing the lienor? Aiding and abetting the unauthorized practice of law? I doubt scienter could be established.
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.comhttp://www.fcbarneslaw.com/
[rsz_1fcb_lrg_logo]
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Larry Leiby
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:51 AM
To: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice. The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel. Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee. That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself. The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others. Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue. Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions. Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them. Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition). Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question. The possibility is there.
Happy Holidays, Larry
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
<2b6986.png>http://www.bplegal.com
<9cacb3.png>http://www.bplegal.com/rss.aspx <dcebd0.png>http://twitter.com/BeckerPoliakoff <ea86ca.png>http://www.youtube.com/user/bplawfirm/videos <874eba.png>http://www.linkedin.com/company/becker-&-poliakoff-p.a. <9db15a.png>http://www.facebook.com/beckerpoliakoff
The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.commailto:care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com
CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
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In that case, would the limitation of liability provision ($40 or whatever the cost of preparing the lien) in the apply since it is technically an illegal contract?
[Carlton Fields]
Wm. Cary Wright
Attorney at Law
4221 W. Boy Scout Blvd., Ste. 1000
Tampa, Florida 33607-5780
Direct: 813.229.4135 | Fax: 813.229.4133
cwright@carltonfields.commailto:cwright@carltonfields.com | www.carltonfields.comhttp://www.carltonfields.com
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Confidential: This e-mail contains a communication protected by the attorney-client privilege or constitutes work product. If you do not expect such a communication please delete this message without reading it or any attachment and then notify the sender of this inadvertent delivery.
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Larry Leiby
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:59 AM
To: Dan Vega
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Dan,
If in fact the NTO company is simply acting as a typing service, that is one thing. If they are exercising discretion on what to put in the lien and what property is lienable, that is the practice of law. I see both sides of the argument. It really pops when there is a screw up on the lien. Then the fingers will start to point.
Larry
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:55 AM
To: Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
You all are blowing this way out of proportion.
The lienor is signing a form that includes data provided by the lienor.
The notice Company is not preparing the lien.
The notice Company facilitates the lienor’s preparation of the lien and records it for a fee.
In South Florida, this service is extremely valuable to the very people who are actually physically performing the work.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:51 AM, Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com> wrote:
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice. The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel. Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee. That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself. The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others. Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue. Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions. Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them. Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition). Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question. The possibility is there.
Happy Holidays, Larry
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
<2b6986.png>http://www.bplegal.com
<9cacb3.png>http://www.bplegal.com/rss.aspx <dcebd0.png>http://twitter.com/BeckerPoliakoff <ea86ca.png>http://www.youtube.com/user/bplawfirm/videos <874eba.png>http://www.linkedin.com/company/becker-&-poliakoff-p.a. <9db15a.png>http://www.facebook.com/beckerpoliakoff
The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.commailto:care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com
CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion
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With all due respect, that just begs the question. Why should it be unlawful and unenforceable? Perhaps to protect owners from bogus liens?
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
http://www.fcbarneslaw.com/ www.fcbarneslaw.com
rsz_1fcb_lrg_logo
From: Larry Leiby [mailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:09 AM
To: Fred Barnes; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.'; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
The argument would be that the lien is unlawful and thus unenforceable when prepared by a non-lawyer for other than himself/herself.
From: Fred Barnes [mailto:fred@fcbarneslaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:07 AM
To: Larry Leiby Leiby@mkpalaw.com; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.' Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; 'Dan Vega' DVega@TEVTLaw.com; 'Weintraub, Lee' lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Let me chime in as a late-comer to the discussion.
It seems to me that there is no valid reason to invalidate the lien. The non-lawyer lien-preparer may be subject to prosecution for the unauthorized practice of law, but what is the rational for penalizing the lienor? Aiding and abetting the unauthorized practice of law? I doubt scienter could be established.
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.com http://www.fcbarneslaw.com/
rsz_1fcb_lrg_logo
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Larry Leiby
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:51 AM
To: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice. The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel. Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee. That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself. The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others. Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue. Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions. Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them. Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition). Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question. The possibility is there.
Happy Holidays, Larry
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' DVega@TEVTLaw.com; 'Weintraub, Lee' lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mail mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Website http://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedIn http://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitter http://twitter.com/leeweintraub
http://www.bplegal.com <2b6986.png>
http://www.bplegal.com/rss.aspx <9cacb3.png> http://twitter.com/BeckerPoliakoff <dcebd0.png> http://www.youtube.com/user/bplawfirm/videos <ea86ca.png> http://www.linkedin.com/company/becker-&-poliakoff-p.a. <874eba.png> http://www.facebook.com/beckerpoliakoff <9db15a.png>
The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega DVega@TEVTLaw.com wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. Chernicz@herniczlegal.com wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion
CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion
This debate is reoccurring every 6 months or so. Can we relocate the debate to another email string for those who wants to participate?
Thank you in advance.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:56 AM, David C. Agee, Esq. <dagee@reidagee.commailto:dagee@reidagee.com> wrote:
This discussion reminds me of how lawyers lost their monopoly on real estate transactions in the 50s. The law exists to protect the public. Once the Genie is out of the bottle, the environment is never the same and it ultimately doesn't serve the public. I don't believe in regulation generally, but the reality is that attorney's often sell their skills and the service they provide to the public short and it is ultimately the public that suffers for it.
David C. Agee, Esquire
REID & AGEE, PLLC
3633 26th Street West
Bradenton, FL 34205
Tel 941.756.8791
Fax 941.755.7311
Ask us about Real Estate and Estate Planning****
The information transmitted in this email, including any attachments, is from Reid & Agee, PLLC and is covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. 2510-2521. This electronic information is intended only for the person(s) or entity/entities to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender via telephone at (941) 756-8791 or reply email and delete the email and any attachments from any computer. Thank You.
-----Original Message-----
From: "Weintraub, Lee" <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:28am
To: "Dan Vega" <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>
Cc: "clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org" <clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Regardless, that is the law.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
<2b6986.png>http://www.bplegal.com
<9cacb3.png>http://www.bplegal.com/rss.aspx <dcebd0.png>http://twitter.com/BeckerPoliakoff <ea86ca.png>http://www.youtube.com/user/bplawfirm/videos <874eba.png>http://www.linkedin.com/company/becker-&-poliakoff-p.a. <9db15a.png>http://www.facebook.com/beckerpoliakoff
The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.commailto:care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com
CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion
CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion
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Seems like an interesting topic for the CLI in March. Just a thought.
Regards,
Alex Barthet
Board Certified in Construction Law
TheLienZone Construction Law Bloghttp://thelienzone.com/
vCardhttp://barthet.com/Wordpress-Site/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/alexander-e-barthet.vcf | Biographyhttp://barthet.com/team/alexander-barthet/alexander-barthet-full-bio/
The Barthet Firm
200 S. Biscayne Blvd., Suite 1800
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305-347-5295 (direct line)
alex@barthet.commailto:alex@barthet.com
www.barthet.comhttp://www.barthet.com/
This electronic communication may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized agent of the intended recipient, please delete this communication and notify the sender. Thank you.
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Weintraub, Lee
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:01 AM
To: Dan Vega DVega@TEVTLaw.com; Larry Leiby Leiby@mkpalaw.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
By the way, I have also represented an NTO company in defense of an unauthorized practice of law complaint from the Florida Bar. We settled it by the company shutting down its lien preparation services.
From: Weintraub, Lee
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:00 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
From where does the legal description come? Or the determination of the true property owner? Or the determination that the NOC’s legal description is accurate? I have prepared many liens where these were nightmare issues and you can’t just rely on an NOC. You can rely on the NOC for NTO purposes, but not for liening property.
For what service is the NTO company charging a fee – use of its form? The lienor can get that from the statute. The NTO company (and I have represented them) actually works up the lien, gathering info from the lienor, then looking at title for the rest.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:55 AM
To: Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
You all are blowing this way out of proportion.
The lienor is signing a form that includes data provided by the lienor.
The notice Company is not preparing the lien.
The notice Company facilitates the lienor’s preparation of the lien and records it for a fee.
In South Florida, this service is extremely valuable to the very people who are actually physically performing the work.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:51 AM, Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com> wrote:
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice. The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel. Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee. That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself. The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others. Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue. Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions. Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them. Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition). Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question. The possibility is there.
Happy Holidays, Larry
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
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On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
www.barrykalmanson.comhttps://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.barrykalmanson.com&data=02%7C01%7Calex%40barthet.com%7Cbfba77df783a42aed4cc08d54172c223%7C4db1f097afcb4c95948f952ebf3da42d%7C0%7C0%7C636486883502099322&sdata=NrmS%2FQ%2BoTQu8wLBLCN1Jr6zK1WApmvjrK7hf19uhnlI%3D&reserved=0
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The correct facts are:
Employees of notice companies are routinely preparing and signing the liens. Not just filling them in with information from the lienor and having the lienor execute the document.
Just last week I found several in Sarasota County prepared by and signed by employees of Zlien.
This is common in S. Florida.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Vega DVega@TEVTLaw.com
To: Larry Leiby Leiby@mkpalaw.com
Cc: clc-discussion clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Sent: Tue, Dec 12, 2017 9:55 am
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
You all are blowing this way out of proportion.
The lienor is signing a form that includes data provided by the lienor.
The notice Company is not preparing the lien.
The notice Company facilitates the lienor’s preparation of the lien and records it for a fee.
In South Florida, this service is extremely valuable to the very people who are actually physically performing the work.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:51 AM, Larry Leiby Leiby@mkpalaw.com wrote:
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice. The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel. Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee. That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself. The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others. Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue. Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions. Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them. Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition). Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question. The possibility is there.
Happy Holidays, Larry
.
Just don’t let Dan be the speaker. ☺
From: Alex Barthet [mailto:Alex@barthet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:13 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com; Dan Vega DVega@TEVTLaw.com; Larry Leiby Leiby@mkpalaw.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Seems like an interesting topic for the CLI in March. Just a thought.
Regards,
Alex Barthet
Board Certified in Construction Law
TheLienZone Construction Law Bloghttp://thelienzone.com/
vCardhttp://barthet.com/Wordpress-Site/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/alexander-e-barthet.vcf | Biographyhttp://barthet.com/team/alexander-barthet/alexander-barthet-full-bio/
The Barthet Firm
200 S. Biscayne Blvd., Suite 1800
Miami, Florida 33131
305-347-5295 (direct line)
alex@barthet.commailto:alex@barthet.com
www.barthet.comhttp://www.barthet.com/
This electronic communication may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized agent of the intended recipient, please delete this communication and notify the sender. Thank you.
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Weintraub, Lee
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:01 AM
To: Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
By the way, I have also represented an NTO company in defense of an unauthorized practice of law complaint from the Florida Bar. We settled it by the company shutting down its lien preparation services.
From: Weintraub, Lee
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:00 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
From where does the legal description come? Or the determination of the true property owner? Or the determination that the NOC’s legal description is accurate? I have prepared many liens where these were nightmare issues and you can’t just rely on an NOC. You can rely on the NOC for NTO purposes, but not for liening property.
For what service is the NTO company charging a fee – use of its form? The lienor can get that from the statute. The NTO company (and I have represented them) actually works up the lien, gathering info from the lienor, then looking at title for the rest.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:55 AM
To: Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
You all are blowing this way out of proportion.
The lienor is signing a form that includes data provided by the lienor.
The notice Company is not preparing the lien.
The notice Company facilitates the lienor’s preparation of the lien and records it for a fee.
In South Florida, this service is extremely valuable to the very people who are actually physically performing the work.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:51 AM, Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com> wrote:
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice. The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel. Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee. That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself. The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others. Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue. Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions. Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them. Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition). Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question. The possibility is there.
Happy Holidays, Larry
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
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On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.comhttps://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=Chernicz%40HerniczLegal.com&data=02%7C01%7Calex%40barthet.com%7Cbfba77df783a42aed4cc08d54172c223%7C4db1f097afcb4c95948f952ebf3da42d%7C0%7C0%7C636486883502099322&sdata=qxiw9QuWHeM4BqKJlsKsrtP6ctHXBIHLIyAUeZ5sKoM%3D&reserved=0
From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
www.barrykalmanson.comhttps://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.barrykalmanson.com&data=02%7C01%7Calex%40barthet.com%7Cbfba77df783a42aed4cc08d54172c223%7C4db1f097afcb4c95948f952ebf3da42d%7C0%7C0%7C636486883502099322&sdata=NrmS%2FQ%2BoTQu8wLBLCN1Jr6zK1WApmvjrK7hf19uhnlI%3D&reserved=0
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