Second case attached to my last email was a mistake.  See this one dealing with NTO preparation being authorized.

Regards,

Robert B. Worman
Worman & Sheffler, P.A.
2707 West Fairbanks Avenue
Suite 200
Winter Park, FL 32789
407 843-5353
rworman@wormanlaw.commailto:rworman@wormanlaw.com
www.wormanlaw.comhttp://www.wormanlaw.com/

NOTICE:
THIS E-MAIL MESSAGE AND ANY ATTACHMENT TO THIS E-MAIL MESSAGE CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT MAY BE LEGALLY PRIVILEGED.  IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU MUST NOT REVIEW, RETRANSMIT, CONVERT TO HARD COPY, COPY, USE OR DISSEMINATE THIS E-MAIL OR ANY ATTACHMENT TO IT. IF YOU HAVE RECEIVED THIS E-MAIL IN ERROR, PLEASE NOTIFY US IMMEDIATELY BY RETURN E-MAIL OR BY TELEPHONE AT 407-843-5353  AND DELETE THIS MESSAGE.  PLEASE NOTE THAT IF THIS E-MAIL MESSAGE CONTAINS A FORWARDED MESSAGE OR IS A REPLY TO A PRIOR MESSAGE, SOME OR ALL OF THE CONTENTS OF THIS MESSAGE OR ANY ATTACHMENTS MAY NOT HAVE BEEN PRODUCED BY WORMAN & SHEFFLER, P.A.
TAX ADVICE DISCLOSURE:  TO ENSURE COMPLIANCE WITH REQUIREMENTS IMPOSED BY THE IRS UNDER CIRCULAR 230, WE INFORM YOU THAT ANY U.S. FEDERAL TAX ADVICE CONTAINED IN THIS COMMUNICATION (INCLUDING ANY ATTACHMENTS), UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFICALLY STATED, WAS NOT INTENDED TO BE USED, AND CANNOT BE USED, FOR THE PURPOSES OF (1) AVOIDING PENALTIES UNDER THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE OR (2) PROMOTING, MARKETING OR RECOMMENDING TO ANOTHER PARTY ANY MATTERS ADDRESSED HEREIN.
PLEASE BE ADVISED THIS LAW FIRM MAY BE ACTING AS A DEBT COLLECTOR AND IS ATTEMPTING TO COLLECT A DEBT.  ANY INFORMATION PROVIDED WILL BE USED FOR THAT PURPOSE.

From: Robert Worman
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:58 AM
To: 'Weintraub, Lee' lweintraub@bplegal.com; Dan Vega DVega@TEVTLaw.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Why are we questioning this now. We also had a series of emails on this topic about 2 years ago.

The matter seems well settled by the 2 cases attached.  If anything, we, as a Bar committee, should be doing everything within our power to protect our clients from poorly prepared layperson drafted construction liens.  I  have one client who just lost out on 3 liens prepared by a Jacksonville NTO company that was clueless on how to research and prepare a construction lien.

Regards,

Robert B. Worman
Worman & Sheffler, P.A.
2707 West Fairbanks Avenue
Suite 200
Winter Park, FL 32789
407 843-5353
rworman@wormanlaw.commailto:rworman@wormanlaw.com
www.wormanlaw.comhttp://www.wormanlaw.com/

NOTICE:
THIS E-MAIL MESSAGE AND ANY ATTACHMENT TO THIS E-MAIL MESSAGE CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION THAT MAY BE LEGALLY PRIVILEGED.  IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU MUST NOT REVIEW, RETRANSMIT, CONVERT TO HARD COPY, COPY, USE OR DISSEMINATE THIS E-MAIL OR ANY ATTACHMENT TO IT. IF YOU HAVE RECEIVED THIS E-MAIL IN ERROR, PLEASE NOTIFY US IMMEDIATELY BY RETURN E-MAIL OR BY TELEPHONE AT 407-843-5353  AND DELETE THIS MESSAGE.  PLEASE NOTE THAT IF THIS E-MAIL MESSAGE CONTAINS A FORWARDED MESSAGE OR IS A REPLY TO A PRIOR MESSAGE, SOME OR ALL OF THE CONTENTS OF THIS MESSAGE OR ANY ATTACHMENTS MAY NOT HAVE BEEN PRODUCED BY WORMAN & SHEFFLER, P.A.
TAX ADVICE DISCLOSURE:  TO ENSURE COMPLIANCE WITH REQUIREMENTS IMPOSED BY THE IRS UNDER CIRCULAR 230, WE INFORM YOU THAT ANY U.S. FEDERAL TAX ADVICE CONTAINED IN THIS COMMUNICATION (INCLUDING ANY ATTACHMENTS), UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFICALLY STATED, WAS NOT INTENDED TO BE USED, AND CANNOT BE USED, FOR THE PURPOSES OF (1) AVOIDING PENALTIES UNDER THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE OR (2) PROMOTING, MARKETING OR RECOMMENDING TO ANOTHER PARTY ANY MATTERS ADDRESSED HEREIN.
PLEASE BE ADVISED THIS LAW FIRM MAY BE ACTING AS A DEBT COLLECTOR AND IS ATTEMPTING TO COLLECT A DEBT.  ANY INFORMATION PROVIDED WILL BE USED FOR THAT PURPOSE.

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Weintraub, Lee
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:29 AM
To: Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Regardless, that is the law.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???

Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.

As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it.  Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential.  On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation.  They draft their own contracts all the time.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Lienors are usually companies.  Companies cannot rep themselves.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course).  But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it.  NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?

Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:

The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone

Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group

1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
<2b6986.png>http://www.bplegal.com
<9cacb3.png>http://www.bplegal.com/rss.aspx <dcebd0.png>http://twitter.com/BeckerPoliakoff <ea86ca.png>http://www.youtube.com/user/bplawfirm/videos <874eba.png>http://www.linkedin.com/company/becker-&-poliakoff-p.a. <9db15a.png>http://www.facebook.com/beckerpoliakoff

The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.commailto:care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?

The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.

Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.

After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215

www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com

CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion

CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion

I don’t see it begging the question.  The lien prepared by a notice company is not in compliance with 713.08 and is the unlicensed practice of law.  The lien law is to be strictly construed.
You ask a policy question about why it should be unlawful.  Why I just answered above.  The policy issue is to protect the public from the unlicensed practice of law.
I can see this being a very real issue where there is a screw up in the lien.  If there is no harm, I don’t know that a court would bother with this.  The Bar UPL committee would be very interested, however.

Larry

From: Fred Barnes [mailto:fred@fcbarneslaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:12 AM
To: Larry Leiby Leiby@mkpalaw.com; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.' Chernicz@herniczlegal.com; 'Dan Vega' DVega@TEVTLaw.com; 'Weintraub, Lee' lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

With all due respect, that just begs the question.  Why should it be unlawful and unenforceable?  Perhaps to protect owners from bogus liens?

Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.comhttp://www.fcbarneslaw.com/
[rsz_1fcb_lrg_logo]

From: Larry Leiby [mailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:09 AM
To: Fred Barnes; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.'; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

The argument would be that the lien is unlawful and thus unenforceable when prepared by a non-lawyer for other than himself/herself.

From: Fred Barnes [mailto:fred@fcbarneslaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:07 AM
To: Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.' <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Let me chime in as a late-comer to the discussion.

It seems to me that there is no valid reason to invalidate the lien. The non-lawyer lien-preparer may be subject to prosecution for the unauthorized practice of law, but what is the rational for penalizing the lienor?  Aiding and abetting the unauthorized practice of law?  I doubt scienter could be established.

Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.comhttp://www.fcbarneslaw.com/
[rsz_1fcb_lrg_logo]

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Larry Leiby
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:51 AM
To: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice.  The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel.  Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee.  That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself.  The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others.  Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue.  Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions.  Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them.  Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition).  Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question.  The possibility is there.

Happy Holidays, Larry

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???

Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.

As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it.  Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential.  On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation.  They draft their own contracts all the time.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Lienors are usually companies.  Companies cannot rep themselves.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course).  But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it.  NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?

Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:

The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone

Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group

1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
<2b6986.png>http://www.bplegal.com
<9cacb3.png>http://www.bplegal.com/rss.aspx <dcebd0.png>http://twitter.com/BeckerPoliakoff <ea86ca.png>http://www.youtube.com/user/bplawfirm/videos <874eba.png>http://www.linkedin.com/company/becker-&-poliakoff-p.a. <9db15a.png>http://www.facebook.com/beckerpoliakoff

The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.commailto:care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?

The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.

Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.

After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215

www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com

CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion

CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion

I don’t see that.  I see a lien form from a notice company signed by lienor.

By the way, who is a lienor’s “agent”???

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 10:13 AM, Barry Kalmanson <bkpa1@aol.commailto:bkpa1@aol.com> wrote:

The correct facts are:

Employees of notice companies are routinely preparing and signing the liens. Not just filling them in with information from the lienor and having the lienor execute the document.

Just last week I found several in Sarasota County prepared by and signed by employees of Zlien.

This is common in S. Florida.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215

www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>
To: Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: clc-discussion <clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Sent: Tue, Dec 12, 2017 9:55 am
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

You all are blowing this way out of proportion.

The lienor is signing a form that includes data provided by the lienor.

The notice Company is not preparing the lien.

The notice Company facilitates the lienor’s preparation of the lien and records it for a fee.

In South Florida, this service is extremely valuable to the very people who are actually physically performing the work.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:51 AM, Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com> wrote:

The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice.  The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel.  Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee.  That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself.  The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others.  Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue.  Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions.  Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them.  Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition).  Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question.  The possibility is there.

Happy Holidays, Larry

.http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion

I will leave the legality of it to the experts, but as a former Project Manager, I’ll tell you what I’ve seen from experience. Subcontractors and contractors prepare and file liens themselves all the time. Similar to their owner contract and subcontract templates, most mid-to large contractors have a form database. If not, the project team uses a lien that someone in the company prepared in the past as a template. Most of these liens either get the attention of the owner or contractor to the point that they are paid, or if there is a dispute, the contractor transfers the lien to his bond (without an attorney) and buys himself a few more months. I don’t have any data to support this, but I think that most lien filings probably get resolved without escalating to the level of needing to foreclose on a lien, so they probably never come across an attorney’s desk.

I’ve seen contractors hire notice companies to prepare liens, but more often than not, they are prepared in-house without even asking in-house counsel for advice (if they even have one).

I think that most smaller contractors and subcontractors don’t even know that construction attorneys exist, much less that preparing a lien is practicing law. They haven’t been paid and know from experience or advice from another contractor, that filing a lien is the next step to get paid and they figure out how to do so as cost effectively as possible. If you’re a small contractor and haven’t been paid $20k to $100k, it’s painful and may jeopardize your solvency. Going to an attorney to spend what you think will amount to thousands, is probably the last thing on your mind. You do whatever your superior or friends in the industry advise. As long as you’re not asking a large GC with in-house and outside counsel for advice,  the advice is most likely going to be to ‘do it yourself, here’s my form;’ or ‘I’ve used this guy, he only charges $99 and I’ve never had a problem with him.’

Thanks,
Dan

Daniel R. Zorrilla
Oxley & Brannon Construction Consultants, Inc.
475 Central Avenue, Suite 200
Saint Petersburg, Florida 33701
Phone: 727-821-9190
Facsimile: 727-821-0430
Email: dz@obcci.commailto:dz@obcci.com
Click HEREhttps://obcci.sharefile.com/r/rdc76a2a1f944925a to upload your files to our DROPBOX.

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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Partington
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:40 AM
To: Dan Vega DVega@TEVTLaw.com; Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

To me, the preparation of a lien is unquestionably the practice of law. It’s a document that impairs the owner’s title to property, and the nuances of the lien law are a mystery to most lay people, and are perhaps only a bit less a mystery to a lien company. For example, given the issues in determining whether to start the 90 day clock during punchlist work and when, and the nature of the work that may or may not start (or not start) the clock – do any of us think that those folks really do the careful analysis that a lawyer would do. I suspect they ask “when was the last day you were on site working” and that’s about the extent of it. Or what if the lienor gets a request for sworn statement of account or notice of contest of lien?

That said, often the economics of an amount due may not justify the expense of hiring a lawyer, and non-lawyers do things that are unquestionably the practice of law all of the time, from preparing contracts, to title companies closing large real estate transactions – but that doesn’t make it any less the practice of law. The “consumer harm” (which is what the regulators are going to look at) of a small lien is probably likewise small, and the regulator would likely deem it (and evidently has) unworthy of regulation at this point in time.

There’s a balance here – maybe liens of less than $10K are OK for these companies to do, but above that aren’t? I don’t know where the consumer harm/lienor economics balance point is, but it’s a fair consideration.

[http://cp.idgroupbranding.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/logo.png]

Bruce D. Partington
Shareholder • Board Certified in Construction Law

PO Box 13010, Pensacola, FL 32591-3010

O (850) 432.1399 C (850) 982.3875 F (850) 432.7340

clarkpartington.com | http://clarkpartington.com/ bpartington@clarkpartington.commailto:bpartington@clarkpartington.com |

Clark Partington

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Dan Vega
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???

Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.

As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it.  Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential.  On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation.  They draft their own contracts all the time.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Lienors are usually companies.  Companies cannot rep themselves.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course).  But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it.  NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?

Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:

The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone

Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group

1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Websitehttp://www.bplegal.com | Connect on LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813 | Follow Me on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/leeweintraub
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On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?

The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.

Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.

After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215

www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com

CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion

CLC-Discussion mailing list
CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion

Take a look at Instrument # 2017122297 Sarasota County recorded on 10/03/2017

Prepared by a notice company  in Oregon for a company in Florida and notarized in Louisiana after being signed by an employee of the notice company.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215

www.barrykalmanson.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Vega DVega@TEVTLaw.com
To: Barry Kalmanson bkpa1@aol.com
Cc: Leiby Leiby@mkpalaw.com; clc-discussion clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Sent: Tue, Dec 12, 2017 10:20 am
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

I don’t see that.  I see a lien form from a notice company signed by lienor.

By the way, who is a lienor’s “agent”???

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 10:13 AM, Barry Kalmanson bkpa1@aol.com wrote:

The correct facts are:

Employees of notice companies are routinely preparing and signing the liens. Not just filling them in with information from the lienor and having the lienor execute the document.

Just last week I found several in Sarasota County prepared by and signed by employees of Zlien.

This is common in S. Florida.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215

www.barrykalmanson.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Vega DVega@TEVTLaw.com
To: Larry Leiby Leiby@mkpalaw.com
Cc: clc-discussion clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Sent: Tue, Dec 12, 2017 9:55 am
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

You all are blowing this way out of proportion.

The lienor is signing a form that includes data provided by the lienor.

The notice Company is not preparing the lien.

The notice Company facilitates the lienor’s preparation of the lien and records it for a fee.

In South Florida, this service is extremely valuable to the very people who are actually physically performing the work.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:51 AM, Larry Leiby Leiby@mkpalaw.com wrote:

The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice.  The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel.  Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee.  That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself.  The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others.  Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue.  Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions.  Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them.  Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition).  Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question.  The possibility is there.

Happy Holidays, Larry

.

I have a good example of why notice companies should not be preparing liens for subs (taken from real facts).  A notice company prepared a lien for a sub, who wasn’t  a lienor within the definition of chapter 713 (a third level sub-sub-sub).  The sub was unaware (the notice company almost certainly unaware) that the lien was legally invalid.  The sub later filed for foreclosure on the lien and could face fees and costs because the lien in unenforceable.  That is why an attorney should be involved; subs DO NOT KNOW that notice companies are prohibited by law from preparing liens.  This is the practice of law.

Chuck

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Steve Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:55 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' DVega@TEVTLaw.com; 'Weintraub, Lee' lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

I think we can all agree that there is a variety of legal analysis that takes place in lien preparation such as:

• Is it timely? (i.e. what exactly is last date of work or provision of materials?)
• Have conditions precedent been met (NTO – have all parties been properly served?)
• Privity issues (i.e. tenant involved? Exculpatory language in recorded landlord’s lease?)

These are legal issues that need a lawyer’s analysis.  I have prospective clients approach me all the time with potentially defective liens they recorded themselves.  Unfortunately, they often do so after the time for amendment.

Steven F. Thompson, Esq.
Thompson Commercial Law Group
412 E. Madison St., Ste 900
Tampa, Fl. 33602
813-387-1821
Fax 813-387-1824

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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Dan Vega
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee lweintraub@bplegal.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???

Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.

As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it.  Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential.  On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com mailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.com mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com > wrote:

In litigation.  They draft their own contracts all the time.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.com mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com >
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.com mailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com >; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org mailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Lienors are usually companies.  Companies cannot rep themselves.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com mailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.com mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com > wrote:

Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course).  But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it.  NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.com mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com >
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.com mailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com >; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org mailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?

Makes no sense

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com mailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.com mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com > wrote:

The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.

Sent from my iPhone

Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group

1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mail mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
Website http://www.bplegal.com  | Connect on LinkedIn http://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813  | Follow Me on Twitter http://twitter.com/leeweintraub
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On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.com mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com > wrote:

Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?

The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.com mailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.com mailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com > wrote:

Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.

Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org  [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org mailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.

After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson

500 N Maitland Avenue

Suite 305

Maitland, Fl. 32751

407-645-4500 x 215

www.barrykalmanson.com http://www.barrykalmanson.com

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CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org mailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
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Not my point.

And that can happen to a lawyer too.

Many lawyers do not understand the lien law and even the most experienced Construction lawyers  err in interpreting chapter 713.  You and I personally know this very well.

The point I am making is that if the lienor signs the lien, the lienor prepared the lien and owns its contents.  Otherwise don’t sign it.

The fact a notice company facilitates the process for the lienor should not invalidate an otherwise valid lien.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 10:28 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:

I have a good example of why notice companies should not be preparing liens for subs (taken from real facts).  A notice company prepared a lien for a sub, who wasn’t  a lienor within the definition of chapter 713 (a third level sub-sub-sub).  The sub was unaware (the notice company almost certainly unaware) that the lien was legally invalid.  The sub later filed for foreclosure on the lien and could face fees and costs because the lien in unenforceable.  That is why an attorney should be involved; subs DO NOT KNOW that notice companies are prohibited by law from preparing liens.  This is the practice of law.

Chuck

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Steve Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:55 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

I think we can all agree that there is a variety of legal analysis that takes place in lien preparation such as:

• Is it timely? (i.e. what exactly is last date of work or provision of materials?)
• Have conditions precedent been met (NTO – have all parties been properly served?)
• Privity issues (i.e. tenant involved? Exculpatory language in recorded landlord’s lease?)

These are legal issues that need a lawyer’s analysis.  I have prospective clients approach me all the time with potentially defective liens they recorded themselves.  Unfortunately, they often do so after the time for amendment.

Steven F. Thompson, Esq.
Thompson Commercial Law Group
412 E. Madison St., Ste 900
Tampa, Fl. 33602
813-387-1821
Fax 813-387-1824
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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Dan Vega
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???

Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.

As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it.  Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential.  On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation.  They draft their own contracts all the time.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Lienors are usually companies.  Companies cannot rep themselves.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course).  But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it.  NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?

Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:

The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone

Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group

1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
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The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.commailto:care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?

The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.

Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.

After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215

www.barrykalmanson.comhttp://www.barrykalmanson.com

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I would love to be on a panel but I do not advocate what chuck wrote below.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 10:38 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:

I disagree.  It should be a panel discussion and Dan should be on the panel because he is the only one I’ve seen trying to defend the practice of notice companies violating the lien law.

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Weintraub, Lee
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:14 AM
To: Alex Barthet <Alex@barthet.commailto:Alex@barthet.com>; Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Just don’t let Dan be the speaker.  ☺

From: Alex Barthet [mailto:Alex@barthet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:13 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>; Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Seems like an interesting topic for the CLI in March.  Just a thought.

Regards,
Alex Barthet
Board Certified in Construction Law
TheLienZone Construction Law Bloghttp://thelienzone.com/
vCardhttp://barthet.com/Wordpress-Site/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/alexander-e-barthet.vcf | Biographyhttp://barthet.com/team/alexander-barthet/alexander-barthet-full-bio/

The Barthet Firm
200 S. Biscayne Blvd., Suite 1800
Miami, Florida 33131
305-347-5295 (direct line)
alex@barthet.commailto:alex@barthet.com
www.barthet.comhttp://www.barthet.com/

This electronic communication may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information.  If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized agent of the intended recipient, please delete this communication and notify the sender.  Thank you.

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Weintraub, Lee
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:01 AM
To: Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

By the way, I have also represented an NTO company in defense of an unauthorized practice of law complaint from the Florida Bar.  We settled it by the company shutting down its lien preparation services.

From: Weintraub, Lee
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:00 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

From where does the legal description come?  Or the determination of the true property owner?  Or the determination that the NOC’s legal description is accurate?  I have prepared many liens where these were nightmare issues and you can’t just rely on an NOC.  You can rely on the NOC for NTO purposes, but not for liening property.

For what service is the NTO company charging a fee – use of its form?  The lienor can get that from the statute.  The NTO company (and I have represented them) actually works up the lien, gathering info from the lienor, then looking at title for the rest.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:55 AM
To: Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

You all are blowing this way out of proportion.

The lienor is signing a form that includes data provided by the lienor.

The notice Company is not preparing the lien.

The notice Company facilitates the lienor’s preparation of the lien and records it for a fee.

In South Florida, this service is extremely valuable to the very people who are actually physically performing the work.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:51 AM, Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com> wrote:
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice.  The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel.  Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee.  That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself.  The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others.  Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue.  Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions.  Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them.  Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition).  Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question.  The possibility is there.

Happy Holidays, Larry

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???

Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.

As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it.  Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential.  On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation.  They draft their own contracts all the time.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Lienors are usually companies.  Companies cannot rep themselves.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course).  But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it.  NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?

Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:

The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone

Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group

1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
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The Becker & Poliakoff Client CARE Center is here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at care@bplegal.commailto:care@bplegal.com.
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?

The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.

Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz@HerniczLegal.comhttps://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=Chernicz%40HerniczLegal.com&data=02%7C01%7Calex%40barthet.com%7Cbfba77df783a42aed4cc08d54172c223%7C4db1f097afcb4c95948f952ebf3da42d%7C0%7C0%7C636486883502099322&sdata=qxiw9QuWHeM4BqKJlsKsrtP6ctHXBIHLIyAUeZ5sKoM%3D&reserved=0

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.

After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215

www.barrykalmanson.comhttps://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.barrykalmanson.com&data=02%7C01%7Calex%40barthet.com%7Cbfba77df783a42aed4cc08d54172c223%7C4db1f097afcb4c95948f952ebf3da42d%7C0%7C0%7C636486883502099322&sdata=NrmS%2FQ%2BoTQu8wLBLCN1Jr6zK1WApmvjrK7hf19uhnlI%3D&reserved=0

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None of us should advocate that we be simplistically reduced to vending machines dispensing the law in exchange for a quarter in the slot.  We have Legal Zoom to help us mislead the public with the vending machine approach.

Dan, just call me old fashioned but I still believe that our judgment in drafting contracts and preparing liens is less form and more substance.  It’s hard to believe that since 1981, our discussion on this topic has hardly advanced.

Claire

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Weintraub, Lee
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:14 AM
To: Alex Barthet Alex@barthet.com; Dan Vega DVega@TEVTLaw.com; Larry Leiby Leiby@mkpalaw.com
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Just don’t let Dan be the speaker.  ☺

From: Alex Barthet [mailto:Alex@barthet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:13 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>; Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Seems like an interesting topic for the CLI in March.  Just a thought.

Regards,
Alex Barthet
Board Certified in Construction Law
TheLienZone Construction Law Bloghttp://thelienzone.com/
vCardhttp://barthet.com/Wordpress-Site/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/alexander-e-barthet.vcf | Biographyhttp://barthet.com/team/alexander-barthet/alexander-barthet-full-bio/

The Barthet Firm
200 S. Biscayne Blvd., Suite 1800
Miami, Florida 33131
305-347-5295 (direct line)
alex@barthet.commailto:alex@barthet.com
www.barthet.comhttp://www.barthet.com/

This electronic communication may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information.  If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized agent of the intended recipient, please delete this communication and notify the sender.  Thank you.

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Weintraub, Lee
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:01 AM
To: Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

By the way, I have also represented an NTO company in defense of an unauthorized practice of law complaint from the Florida Bar.  We settled it by the company shutting down its lien preparation services.

From: Weintraub, Lee
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:00 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

From where does the legal description come?  Or the determination of the true property owner?  Or the determination that the NOC’s legal description is accurate?  I have prepared many liens where these were nightmare issues and you can’t just rely on an NOC.  You can rely on the NOC for NTO purposes, but not for liening property.

For what service is the NTO company charging a fee – use of its form?  The lienor can get that from the statute.  The NTO company (and I have represented them) actually works up the lien, gathering info from the lienor, then looking at title for the rest.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:55 AM
To: Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

You all are blowing this way out of proportion.

The lienor is signing a form that includes data provided by the lienor.

The notice Company is not preparing the lien.

The notice Company facilitates the lienor’s preparation of the lien and records it for a fee.

In South Florida, this service is extremely valuable to the very people who are actually physically performing the work.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:51 AM, Larry Leiby <Leiby@mkpalaw.commailto:Leiby@mkpalaw.com> wrote:
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice.  The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel.  Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee.  That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself.  The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others.  Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue.  Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions.  Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them.  Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition).  Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question.  The possibility is there.

Happy Holidays, Larry

From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???

Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.

As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it.  Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential.  On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
In litigation.  They draft their own contracts all the time.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Lienors are usually companies.  Companies cannot rep themselves.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course).  But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it.  NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.

From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com>; clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?

Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub@bplegal.commailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com> wrote:

The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone

Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group

1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mailmailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com
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On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega@TEVTLaw.commailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?

The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega@tevtlaw.commailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz@herniczlegal.commailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.

Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
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From: clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.orgmailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.

After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215

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